Episode 5 - T.R.'s Western Tales Told as Truth

1 00:00:07,337 --> 00:00:13,775 Welcome, Doug to the talk about Teddy Podcast Well, thank you, Larry. 2 00:00:13,775 --> 00:00:14,495 Thank you, Kurt. 3 00:00:14,495 --> 00:00:15,305 Thanks for having me on. 4 00:00:16,103 --> 00:00:18,718.233560091 wonderful to see you, uh, Doug. 5 00:00:18,803 --> 00:00:28,528 You you quote Herman Hagadorn in the epigraph to your book where he says, I cannot hear the word Dakota without feeling a stirring in my blood. 6 00:00:28,858 --> 00:00:32,398 Uh, and I suspect that probably describes your feelings as well. 7 00:00:32,428 --> 00:00:59,550 Uh, over the past four decades, you've written or edited nine books about outlaws and lawmen from Western Frontier history, and we're just curious, how did this interest develop for you? Yeah, when I, I, uh, saw that quote by Hagadorn that, that, uh, hit close to home because I, up on a farm and ranch in, in North Dakota with a South Dakota address right near the border. 8 00:00:59,955 --> 00:01:02,920 And, that, quote was very poignant, to. 9 00:01:04,225 --> 00:01:11,785 I can't remember a time when I was not interested in history in general and regional history in particular. 10 00:01:13,255 --> 00:01:23,560 And, I guess, seeing the tourism advertisements for North Dakota, we, uh, make a lot of sitting bull in general, Custer and Theodore Roosevelt. 11 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:30,090 And when I was a, youngster, uh, developed an interest in all those historic characters. 12 00:01:31,192 --> 00:01:46,805 So with your love of Western Frontier history, and you said Sitting Bull and Custer and Theodore Roosevelt, what led you to write this book in particular? This book in particular, of grew over time. 13 00:01:47,025 --> 00:01:50,685 As I read, stories about Theodore Roosevelt. 14 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:53,310 And area history. 15 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:58,200 It gradually dawned on me that these stories didn't always match up., 16 00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:03,225 I read, uh, Theodore Roosevelt's, versions of, uh, his life out here. 17 00:02:04,335 --> 00:02:15,255 And then as I dug a little deeper and got into the other documentation, old newspapers, old court records, other reminiscences. 18 00:02:16,885 --> 00:02:20,035 It became plain to me that, uh, they didn't always mesh. 19 00:02:20,875 --> 00:02:31,155 So I, I began to look at the stories with more of a critical eye and, started talking a a bit about some of those contradictions to people. 20 00:02:31,485 --> 00:02:39,945 And in 2015, clay Jenkinson, who hosts the Roosevelts at Dickinson State University. 21 00:02:40,860 --> 00:02:46,680 Had asked me to speak the topic that year was Theodore Roosevelt in Frontier Justice. 22 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:56,450 So I began putting that talk together and I included some of these, stories that I had discovered. 23 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:04,560 And, uh, the talk seemed to go over quite well and,, and Clay and some others, uh, urged me to, publish. 24 00:03:05,340 --> 00:03:06,390 What I had found. 25 00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:15,420 So I, I started doing a little more research and eventually, uh, found enough where I thought it might, might make an interesting, um, study. 26 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:26,038 So each, each chapter in the book is basically a different essay on some episodes that TR talked about and wrote about, and Mm-Hmm. 27 00:03:26,260 --> 00:03:32,650 contrast those with other sources and point out how they do not always match up. 28 00:03:33,658 --> 00:03:34,078 Yeah. 29 00:03:34,108 --> 00:03:45,580 So these, uh, these discrepancies, shall we say, uh, in the, in the record, why do you think t remembered things differently than you might've discovered in your research? Yeah. 30 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:49,000 Um, that, that's an interesting question. 31 00:03:49,005 --> 00:03:57,380 It, it, you know, it was that Mark Twain era when, uh, writers such as Twain and NTR, who was of course a very prolific writer. 32 00:03:58,535 --> 00:04:05,015 When they were, selling stories and to tell a good story, you, you told a good story. 33 00:04:05,075 --> 00:04:09,275 You know, and, they weren't necessarily writing academic history. 34 00:04:10,535 --> 00:04:21,365 So, uh, I, I think they, uh, tr in particular, I, think he just wanted to tell a good story and make it dramatic and exciting, and there's nothing wrong with that. 35 00:04:22,070 --> 00:04:22,670 At all. 36 00:04:22,970 --> 00:04:38,690 But to me, the danger there was that so many historians and especially biographers of tr would just repeat his stories uncritically and perhaps obviously not realizing that he was, uh, exaggerating. 37 00:04:45,275 --> 00:04:54,920 Or essays plural should be done on some of these stories and, and point out the fact that Tiara is telling a good story, but it didn't really happen that way. 38 00:04:55,583 --> 00:04:55,873 Yeah. 39 00:04:56,942 --> 00:05:09,362 Now, I know you mentioned in your book that you're not the only person to discover the TR and a lot of other prominent figures in the West, use the West as that magic mirror to reshape their private and public images. 40 00:05:09,842 --> 00:05:14,435 Who else figured out this about Theodore Roosevelt? Yeah. 41 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:31,240 Uh, I know Edmund Morris, who, is recognized as maybe the premier tr biographer, Edmund Morris pointed that out in his trilogy that, uh, that you needed to look at tr with a critical eye, Morris. 42 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:38,050 To me as I read his, uh, biography, he's, he's a little more dismissive of, of tr r's exaggerations. 43 00:05:38,050 --> 00:05:47,500 You know, he just kind of, uh, gave a little smile, figuratively, and, and said, well, you know, we, we give tr the benefit of the doubt. 44 00:05:47,867 --> 00:05:48,287 Mm-Hmm. 45 00:05:48,430 --> 00:05:57,815 he, he did recognize that some of tr TRS stories, uh, weren't all, entirely accurate and, and others have recognized that too. 46 00:05:57,815 --> 00:06:01,457 Ralph Sletten, who I believe has been a guest on your show, uh, Yes. 47 00:06:01,505 --> 00:06:07,475 that out in his, in his books and, uh, I'm sure others have, uh, noticed that as well. 48 00:06:09,578 --> 00:06:13,143 Well in your book, you have a chapter called Friend or Foe. 49 00:06:13,263 --> 00:06:20,553 Uh, Roosevelt had this, this sometimes strained relationship with the founder of Medora, the the Marquee de Morere. 50 00:06:20,613 --> 00:06:32,590 Um, so, so who was the marquee and, and, uh, can you tell us about this alleged dual between him and t that that was supposed to have, uh, been narrowly avoided? Sure. 51 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:41,210 Uh, Medora, the town of Medora was, founded by the marque Deez, who as, as the title implies, a French nobleman. 52 00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:45,565 He and TR actually were very similar in a lot of ways. 53 00:06:45,565 --> 00:06:49,105 They were within six months of age of each other. 54 00:06:49,135 --> 00:06:49,495 They were both. 55 00:06:50,595 --> 00:06:53,235 years old when they arrived here independently of each other. 56 00:06:53,235 --> 00:07:04,675 The marquee arrived first in April of 1883, and, uh, by the time TR arrived about five months later, He had founded the town already. 57 00:07:04,945 --> 00:07:09,835 Uh, a town did exist called Little Missouri on the West Bank of the little Missouri River. 58 00:07:09,835 --> 00:07:21,415 But the Marquee came to the East Bank of the Little Missourian and founded his own town, which at that point was kind of a company town and he called it Medora after his wife., 59 00:07:22,465 --> 00:07:26,970 And then Tiara arrived that September to hunt a well-known story. 60 00:07:27,770 --> 00:07:31,880 And, In all of T's voluminous writings. 61 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:39,230 He, you know, he talked about many things and many people, but he rarely mentioned the marquee de moez. 62 00:07:40,250 --> 00:07:48,380 And, uh, after a lot of digging, I found maybe, maybe like four references, maybe five, that TR had made to the marquee. 63 00:07:49,610 --> 00:07:56,150 And one, uh, one author put it, well, he said they just seemed to irritate each other, the marquee and. 64 00:07:57,830 --> 00:08:02,030 Uh, they did have those similarities, but they also had some vast differences. 65 00:08:02,990 --> 00:08:08,798 Uh, for instance, the marquee believed in the divine rite of kings, Mm-Hmm. 66 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,510 uh, tr shall we say, did not believe that. 67 00:08:12,260 --> 00:08:16,280 and then in a lot of ways they were just too much alike to, to really get along., 68 00:08:17,270 --> 00:08:24,150 the marquee was was very thin skinned, um, and quite a fighting man. 69 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:36,770 In June of 1883, just within three months of the Marques arrival, uh, before TR got out here, the Marques was, and some of his men were involved in a, a gun fight with some hunters. 70 00:08:36,770 --> 00:08:39,380 And one of the hunters named Riley L was killed. 71 00:08:40,535 --> 00:08:47,755 And the marquee faced a couple of preliminary examinations and was discharged with no indictments. 72 00:08:48,505 --> 00:08:56,665 But two years later, a grand jury did indict the marquee for murder and he did, uh, stand trial for it. 73 00:08:56,670 --> 00:09:04,045 He was held in jail in Bismarck, and, the marquee sent a letter to Theodore Roosevelt. 74 00:09:05,230 --> 00:09:13,390 Basically, uh, accusing him of being in league with the marquees enemies and causing him to be indicted for this murder. 75 00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:21,485 And, he mentioned Joe Ferris, um, being, instrumental in procuring witnesses against the marquee. 76 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,165 And, uh, at any rate, that letter survives and, and tr. 77 00:09:27,185 --> 00:09:32,945 the letter and took it as a challenge to a dual, and the Marques was a dualist. 78 00:09:32,945 --> 00:09:36,245 He'd, uh, at, up to that point, he'd fought duals in France. 79 00:09:36,455 --> 00:09:40,655 He'd killed a man, or his group at least, had killed a man here at Little Missouri. 80 00:09:41,945 --> 00:09:51,045 And, uh, Roosevelt took it as a challenge to a dual and wrote a response, and, and stood up for himself. 81 00:09:51,830 --> 00:09:57,350 I, uh, forget his exact language now, but he, uh, he said, I am not your enemy. 82 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:59,840 If I were, you would know it, I would be an open enemy. 83 00:10:00,980 --> 00:10:09,312 And then he, uh, closed by saying, as, as your words seem to imply a threat, uh, you know, I am always on hand Mm-Hmm. 84 00:10:09,405 --> 00:10:10,845 for my words and actions. 85 00:10:10,905 --> 00:10:11,952 Something to that Yep. 86 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:14,440 it's been debated. 87 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:19,250 Uh, I think most historians doubt that it was an actual challenge to a dual. 88 00:10:19,255 --> 00:10:25,910 The marquee was very direct when he did challenge someone to a dual, and, and his letter was kind of vague. 89 00:10:26,270 --> 00:10:30,890 You could read between the lines as tr apparently did and consider it a challenge. 90 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:38,400 But at any rate, TR did stand up for himself and, and, um, didn't back down and kind of threw it back at the marquee. 91 00:10:39,735 --> 00:10:43,155 And we don't know, uh, the marquees response to that. 92 00:10:43,275 --> 00:10:47,795 But, he and Roosevelt continued to get along. 93 00:10:48,575 --> 00:10:49,805 never close friends. 94 00:10:50,585 --> 00:11:03,395 And in fact, if, if I could at this point, uh, I always wondered, as, as I mentioned earlier, TR mentioned a lot of people and, uh, events, but he had very little to say about the marquee. 95 00:11:04,565 --> 00:11:11,237 And then going through the old, uh, some old newspapers, I did find a, a specific reference, that Roosevelt Perfect. 96 00:11:11,255 --> 00:11:13,043 about the marquee Mm-Hmm. 97 00:11:13,325 --> 00:11:16,415 when he was in Cuba, uh, during the Spanish American War. 98 00:11:16,415 --> 00:11:29,285 And one of the reporters, of the correspondent who had spent time in the Black Hills and knew, uh, the Marquee and Roosevelt, um, specifically asked tr about the Marquee and Roosevelt. 99 00:11:29,315 --> 00:11:31,535 Well, uh, the reporter Kenneth Harris. 100 00:11:32,585 --> 00:11:44,285 In his dispatch says, Colonel Roosevelt is a good storyteller, and whether he is talking of his little Missouri Ranch experiences or of the humors of a New York police court, he always has a large and interested audience. 101 00:11:45,035 --> 00:11:47,405 One night he was speaking of the Marquis de Morre. 102 00:11:48,365 --> 00:11:51,035 It was like living with a cotton mouthed adder to be with him. 103 00:11:51,635 --> 00:11:54,725 Roosevelt said, exciting and interesting, but not pleasant. 104 00:11:56,435 --> 00:11:57,185 Spectacular man. 105 00:11:57,185 --> 00:11:57,875 Dramatic. 106 00:11:58,565 --> 00:12:03,935 So, uh, that finally we have a, a direct quote from Tiara about the marquee. 107 00:12:04,625 --> 00:12:12,173 And, uh, you know, he is an interesting fellow, but it, it wasn't pleasant to be around him, Exciting and interesting, but not pleasant. 108 00:12:12,215 --> 00:12:13,415 but not pleasant. 109 00:12:13,865 --> 00:12:15,455 And, and that says it all. 110 00:12:15,657 --> 00:12:16,377 Oh yeah. 111 00:12:17,135 --> 00:12:18,005 don't have a record. 112 00:12:18,245 --> 00:12:18,635 The marque., 113 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:26,420 We, we know that TR did dine at the Chateau Deez, the home of the, the Marque in Madera. 114 00:12:27,410 --> 00:12:29,090 He did dine there a few times. 115 00:12:29,930 --> 00:12:33,470 that he borrowed books, uh, from the Chateau Madera's books. 116 00:12:33,470 --> 00:12:34,130 Apparently. 117 00:12:34,820 --> 00:12:38,840 Uh, Medora was a New York socialite. 118 00:12:38,990 --> 00:12:42,560 Uh, her father was a, a banker in New York, very wealthy and. 119 00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:47,090 Kind of ran in the same circles. 120 00:12:47,150 --> 00:12:55,040 And another mystery that we've tried to solve is, is how close were the Roosevelts and Theon Hoffmans back in New York. 121 00:12:56,030 --> 00:13:02,555 And we know that Madera's father and Tiara's father belonged to the same clubs and attended some of the same events. 122 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:12,210 we can assume that TR and Medora knew at least of each other back in New York and then renewed that acquaintance out here. 123 00:13:12,215 --> 00:13:16,628 So, uh, so TR and Medora apparently got on fine, but Hmm. 124 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:18,150 he had some issues with her husband. 125 00:13:18,603 --> 00:13:26,973 Yeah, you know, we, uh, we recently had, Chris O'Brien from the Theore Roosevelt Center, um, on the podcast. 126 00:13:26,973 --> 00:13:33,048 And, uh, just a, a tie in to that, uh, both of these, this exchange of letters between. 127 00:13:33,478 --> 00:13:39,868 Theodore Roosevelt and the, and the Marquee are available, and the Digital Library and the Theodore Roosevelt Center. 128 00:13:39,868 --> 00:13:41,248 Both, I mean, that's amazing. 129 00:13:41,248 --> 00:13:42,898 Both of those letters survived. 130 00:13:42,898 --> 00:13:48,268 And you, and, uh, we're gonna put links up on our website, uh, talk about teddy.com 131 00:13:48,328 --> 00:13:59,098 to both of those letters, and folks can make up their minds, uh, for themselves, I guess, as to, uh, to the extent that the marquee actually may have challenged Roosevelt or not. 132 00:13:59,198 --> 00:13:59,955 but right. 133 00:14:00,008 --> 00:14:00,938 wonderful stuff. 134 00:14:01,825 --> 00:14:04,255 Challenge is kind of in the eyes of beholder. 135 00:14:04,853 --> 00:14:11,102 Yeah, and I like, I think it was Bill sold that mentioned TRS response the challenged party. 136 00:14:11,102 --> 00:14:12,422 He would have choice of weapons. 137 00:14:13,775 --> 00:14:14,645 Right, right. 138 00:14:14,855 --> 00:14:15,155 Yes. 139 00:14:15,473 --> 00:14:17,688 and what was his choice? What. 140 00:14:17,915 --> 00:14:20,495 And, and that's, that's another slight contradiction. 141 00:14:20,555 --> 00:14:27,695 Uh, one, one of the accounts, uh, says tr chose shotguns at 10 paces. 142 00:14:27,695 --> 00:14:30,845 Another Sewell account says it was rifles at 12. 143 00:14:31,737 --> 00:14:31,977 Yeah. 144 00:14:37,397 --> 00:14:38,477 That's a really good point. 145 00:14:38,717 --> 00:14:38,807 Yeah. 146 00:14:40,387 --> 00:14:45,597 Well, if I could just, circle back, about the, that vigilante group. 147 00:14:45,697 --> 00:14:54,597 It was his early, uh, biographer Herman Hagadorn that made that claim that both Roosevelt and the marquee. 148 00:14:55,097 --> 00:14:59,562 Eagerly sought out to join the vigilante group, right? right. 149 00:14:59,962 --> 00:15:06,502 uh, one thing I discovered is they were rarely here at the same time that they both were on the move constantly. 150 00:15:07,332 --> 00:15:14,922 the timeline doesn't allow it, doesn't not allow the marquee and tr to have gone into Montana together when Hagen Orn says they did. 151 00:15:16,152 --> 00:15:20,322 And in, in preparing the book, I went through the old newspapers. 152 00:15:20,322 --> 00:15:24,972 They were both very prominent men and their, their comings and goings typically made the newspapers. 153 00:15:26,052 --> 00:15:54,062 And when I kind of drew a parallel, timeline, uh, they were rarely here at the same time, which led me to question the vigilante, uh, at that time, Granville Stewart in Montana had formed a vigilante army to fight wrestling and Hagadorn and others had the marquee and, and tr jointly going into Montana to basically beg Granville Stewart to be allowed to ride with his vigilantes. 154 00:15:55,342 --> 00:16:02,572 And that story's been repeated many times, but again, in constructing this parallel timeline, uh. 155 00:16:03,307 --> 00:16:12,937 It, it just, it's, it couldn't have happened because TR and the Marquee were not here at the same time when they would've had to go into Montana and, and meet with Granville Stewart. 156 00:16:12,937 --> 00:16:14,077 So it was a good story. 157 00:16:14,082 --> 00:16:22,777 Apparently it originated with Granville, Stewart's second wife, who he married many years after the fact and, and where she got the story. 158 00:16:22,867 --> 00:16:24,187 Uh, I'm not sure. 159 00:16:24,367 --> 00:16:26,347 Uh, tag didn't really. 160 00:16:27,862 --> 00:16:32,332 Seem to know either, but apparently the story started with, uh, the second Mrs. 161 00:16:32,332 --> 00:16:33,352 Granville Stewart. 162 00:16:33,532 --> 00:16:35,962 And, uh, it just didn't happen. 163 00:16:35,962 --> 00:16:42,347 And, and tr uh, also as his later record demonstrates was not a vigilante. 164 00:16:42,429 --> 00:16:42,649 No. 165 00:16:46,067 --> 00:16:46,577 Into. 166 00:16:47,927 --> 00:16:52,217 TRS claim that he was a deputy sheriff out here. 167 00:16:52,847 --> 00:17:07,607 And, another famous story, of course, is, his pursuit of the boat thieves when his boat was stolen and, and he and his two men set out in pursuit and, caught up with the thieves who were stuck behind an ice jam on the river. 168 00:17:08,657 --> 00:17:13,607 And, and eventually took them into Dickinson and, and TR did get paid for that. 169 00:17:13,637 --> 00:17:18,557 You know, he turned in his expenses apparently was paid through Morton County. 170 00:17:19,517 --> 00:17:24,107 Billings County that, that Medora is in now existed in name only. 171 00:17:24,107 --> 00:17:25,727 Back then it was unorganized. 172 00:17:25,727 --> 00:17:30,917 So the, county justice system was out of Morton County, Mandan. 173 00:17:31,857 --> 00:17:35,607 Unfortunately, Morton County's records, uh, are lost. 174 00:17:35,697 --> 00:17:57,277 Apparently they were destroyed in a flood many years ago when I was researching the book just to, uh, check off all the boxes, I did go through the Billings County Courthouse and the Stark County Courthouse, which is where Dickinson is, and the records do go back that far to the 1880s, but there's no mention of tr being, uh, a deputy sheriff. 175 00:17:58,147 --> 00:18:02,497 So apparently he was paid through Morton County and those records are lost. 176 00:18:03,247 --> 00:18:08,697 So, I, I don't believe Roosevelt was ever an officially sanctioned deputy sheriff. 177 00:18:08,727 --> 00:18:21,697 Uh, I think the both, the arrest was kind of a citizen's arrest, although they did honor his expenses and he got those reimbursed, but he, he often did claim, uh, with, with a great deal of pride. 178 00:18:22,732 --> 00:18:26,332 Uh, that he was a deputy sheriff in Dakota territory. 179 00:18:26,797 --> 00:18:31,762 And, uh, and the, the story is very, uh, very honorable. 180 00:18:31,762 --> 00:18:35,159 I mean,, that was quite a, a trip, uh, Tiara Yes. 181 00:18:35,167 --> 00:18:36,512 took after the boat thieves. 182 00:18:36,512 --> 00:18:37,832 And, uh. 183 00:18:38,792 --> 00:18:49,682 You know, another thing I, I don't think I mentioned this in the book, but it occurred to me afterward, is, uh, TR and his group led the three thieves to the Diamond Sea Ranch near the Kilder Mountains. 184 00:18:50,702 --> 00:18:57,872 Tr rented a, a wagon and a driver to take the thieves into Dickinson about 45 miles away. 185 00:18:59,207 --> 00:19:02,177 And tr walked behind the wagon 45 miles. 186 00:19:02,657 --> 00:19:03,497 Now he's at a ranch. 187 00:19:03,497 --> 00:19:05,837 He's hired a, a team in wagon. 188 00:19:06,587 --> 00:19:15,339 didn't he rent himself a horse? You know, guess because he's the Roosevelt, he, he, he always looked for the most extreme challenge, The strenuous life. 189 00:19:15,502 --> 00:19:18,467 he, he'd rather walk 45 miles and ride 45. 190 00:19:19,355 --> 00:19:30,100 But the boat thieves, you know, tr took great pains to deliver them to jail in Dickinson when, when a lot of the, uh, area ranchers. 191 00:19:31,255 --> 00:19:32,687 Basically Yeah. 192 00:19:32,755 --> 00:19:36,323 you know, why, why didn't you just shoot him or hang them, get it over with, Mm-Hmm. 193 00:19:36,925 --> 00:19:40,015 great pains to, uh, bring them to justice. 194 00:19:40,770 --> 00:19:42,865 he was obviously not a vigilante at. 195 00:19:45,082 --> 00:20:00,772 Now, I know in the introduction to your book, you make a reference to that nefarious law breaker, lippy Slim, who's only known arrest was made by an intrepid young deputy sheriff from Dakota Territory named Theodore Roosevelt, was Lippy Slim. 196 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:02,530 Yeah, lippy. 197 00:20:02,530 --> 00:20:07,390 Uh, I, I tried to keep, keep the book kind of lighthearted. 198 00:20:07,537 --> 00:20:07,827 Yeah. 199 00:20:07,995 --> 00:20:15,520 you know, uh, I tried to document everything, but I did try to keep it a little lighthearted because, uh, I didn't wanna, you know, TR was a great man. 200 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,302 I didn't wanna offend, you know, his, his Yeah. 201 00:20:19,075 --> 00:20:20,515 I, I admire him greatly. 202 00:20:21,355 --> 00:20:40,615 But, uh, lippy Slim, I, I dedicated the book to Lippy Slim and, I, uh, have, have spent, my, basically my entire life, you know, I've read a lot about, uh, Western Lawmen and Outlaws, and I'd never come across Lippy Slim. 203 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,105 uh, and I. 204 00:20:45,085 --> 00:20:53,095 Probably deeper than I've ever dug before, and no reference at all other than Theodore Roosevelt to an outlaw named Lippy Slim. 205 00:20:53,905 --> 00:21:04,835 uh, even, even in the Hagadorn notes, which which are online now, uh, courtesy of Raul Sletten,, even in the Hagadorn notes, he asked some of his informants. 206 00:21:05,495 --> 00:21:10,745 What, what did they know about Lippy Slim? Because he's obviously seeing the, the reference tr made. 207 00:21:11,465 --> 00:21:14,465 None of his informants knew anything about Lippy Slim. 208 00:21:15,305 --> 00:21:29,375 they said, gosh, we never, never heard of him, you know, and, uh, so my conclusion and actually, uh, I, I made a serious offer, reward for Lippy Slim, anyone who. 209 00:21:32,345 --> 00:21:38,435 Beyond the word of Theodore Roosevelt and I, I will pay that if anyone can Yeah, not existed. 210 00:21:38,435 --> 00:21:43,625 And, uh, Do you have a wondered poster we can maybe put up online? thought about making one up. 211 00:21:43,727 --> 00:21:43,847 you. 212 00:21:44,015 --> 00:21:44,315 did. 213 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:52,810 Uh, but, uh, but no lippy, uh, I'm afraid existed only in imagination. 214 00:21:54,430 --> 00:21:54,922 And I know. 215 00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:00,515 uh, even, uh, he, uh, the way he de describes Lippy, he said, um. 216 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:10,400 It was, it was this first meeting with, um, Seth Bullock between Medora and Deadwood when he first met Seth Bullock. 217 00:22:10,405 --> 00:22:18,890 And he said they, they were kind of comparing notes on some of these outlaws that they were familiar with, and Calamity Joe was brought up. 218 00:22:18,895 --> 00:22:26,030 He was a real, real area, Ruster Horse Steeler and tr uh. 219 00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:41,958 Claim to have arrested Calamity Joe as well? Well, he did not, uh, calamity Joe's pretty well documented and he was arrested a couple of times, never by Theodore Roosevelt, although Roosevelt claimed he arrested Calamity Joe and also Lippy Slim, and he asked Hmm. 220 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:48,140 Bullock what happened to, to Lippy Slim and, and well, uh, Stewart hanged him. 221 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:55,400 Well, this, this, uh, occurred, you know, after the, the Montana Stranglers were, were on the loose. 222 00:22:55,490 --> 00:23:00,170 So, uh, it was just a neat story, but, uh, no basis in fact. 223 00:23:02,108 --> 00:23:15,623 Well, it's probably in line with, with, uh, my next question here, but I, uh, I know Roosevelt enjoyed telling the, the stories of his close encounters with barroom bullies and, and bunking up with wanted criminals during his time in the West. 224 00:23:15,653 --> 00:23:20,153 Uh, so what have you discovered about some of these tales told as truth by tr. 225 00:23:20,420 --> 00:23:26,980 Yeah, the, another famous story is in, uh, I think ever. 226 00:23:27,715 --> 00:23:41,875 Said in a frontier town, a little frontier town, which has come to be,, as, Webo Montana, which was ville at that time, although tr never, he, he was quite vague on when it happened and where it happened. 227 00:23:41,905 --> 00:23:43,570 But, he, talked about. 228 00:23:44,505 --> 00:23:52,315 Knocking out a, gunman in a saloon who had, who was trying to force tr to buy the drinks. 229 00:23:52,615 --> 00:23:56,635 And, uh, TR was a boxer at Harvard, apparently a very good boxer. 230 00:23:57,565 --> 00:24:02,585 And, tr he, he coldcocked this guy. 231 00:24:02,735 --> 00:24:04,745 And I, I believe he probably did. 232 00:24:05,690 --> 00:24:16,590 Whether it was a dangerous gunman or just a barroom drunk, uh, know, that that's open to interpretation, but Roosevelt told that story many times and it, it seemed to grow a little bit every time. 233 00:24:17,460 --> 00:24:21,450 The first time he mentioned it, it was just a very short paragraph. 234 00:24:21,455 --> 00:24:22,470 And, and, uh. 235 00:24:23,655 --> 00:24:25,575 Almost, you almost overlook it. 236 00:24:25,785 --> 00:24:35,955 And, uh, the story kind of grew with each retelling until it became this, uh, famous western encounter between tr and a two gun bad man. 237 00:24:36,885 --> 00:24:38,565 You know, but I, I think he probably did. 238 00:24:39,555 --> 00:24:43,317 Uh, he, you know, obviously he would've stuck up for himself Yeah. 239 00:24:43,455 --> 00:24:44,925 and he was good with his fist. 240 00:24:46,245 --> 00:24:47,775 Fred Willard, our first sheriff. 241 00:24:50,085 --> 00:24:56,595 And, and that's, another, another interesting comparison, of TR and Fred Willard. 242 00:24:57,675 --> 00:25:02,185 But, Willard said later that he, he could out ride Roosevelt. 243 00:25:02,190 --> 00:25:05,575 He could outshoot Roosevelt, but he could not outbox Roosevelt. 244 00:25:05,852 --> 00:25:06,072 Wow. 245 00:25:06,115 --> 00:25:10,405 So you wonder if Fred Willard and Tiara didn't mix it up a little bit too with. 246 00:25:12,838 --> 00:25:13,878 I wouldn't doubt that a bit. 247 00:25:15,742 --> 00:25:20,012 So, you've mentioned Herman, he's notes and others. 248 00:25:20,882 --> 00:25:39,250 sources, as you were writing the book, did you find the most helpful in researching this? Uh, I, I went through a lot of, uh, old newspapers and, and, uh, some court records, prison records, recollections from contemporaries of. 249 00:25:39,747 --> 00:25:40,037 Yeah. 250 00:25:40,855 --> 00:26:01,115 kind of a combination of, of sources, but uh, I tried to get as original sources as possible, you know, as contemporary as possible because, I think as people, and I know this from experience too, as we tried to recollect events in, in our past, they become. 251 00:26:02,170 --> 00:26:09,550 Vague E even when we're, we don't think they are, you know, but we're often corrected and we're all guilty of that, I guess. 252 00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:10,732 And, Yeah. 253 00:26:11,025 --> 00:26:17,950 but, but I tried to get as original records as, as possible to compare with's, uh, recollections. 254 00:26:18,378 --> 00:26:18,558 Mm-Hmm. 255 00:26:19,628 --> 00:26:20,078 yeah. 256 00:26:20,178 --> 00:26:24,888 going back to, to Hagadorn and his Roosevelt and the Badlands, that was actually, um. 257 00:26:26,663 --> 00:26:31,643 Funded, I believe in part by the Theodore Roosevelt Memorial Association right after his death. 258 00:26:31,673 --> 00:26:46,843 Hagadorn had handwritten letters from Roosevelt before he had died, uh, in early 1919, basically, um, giving his permission for Hagadorn to come out and talk to Roosevelt's contemporaries from the Badlands in the 1880s. 259 00:26:46,843 --> 00:26:51,613 So I know Haagen is kind of the basis for a lot of, uh. 260 00:26:51,983 --> 00:26:54,023 The biographers that come after him. 261 00:26:54,053 --> 00:26:56,064 Uh, I found Hagadorn does have a. 262 00:26:56,463 --> 00:27:00,663 Freely available online, open source book, uh, that folks can go. 263 00:27:00,668 --> 00:27:03,663 And again, we'll, we'll post a link to that so people can read it. 264 00:27:03,663 --> 00:27:10,773 But it was interesting, I found Hagadorn said that he couldn't find copies, and this is back 1920 timeframe. 265 00:27:10,773 --> 00:27:16,353 He couldn't find copies of the Badlands Cowboy, for example, um, printed in Madora. 266 00:27:16,573 --> 00:27:23,293 During TRS time, it, I found that interesting that we, you know, we have those available now through Library of Congress. 267 00:27:23,323 --> 00:27:28,633 Uh, I think most of those copies, but Haagen claims to have not been able to get his hands on 'em. 268 00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:34,720 Yeah, I guess I, I didn't realize how scarce they were at that time, but yeah, you're, you're right. 269 00:27:34,780 --> 00:27:39,100 Uh, Kurt, they are available now on Library of Congress website. 270 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:46,415 Uh, the, the paper was published three years, 18 84 5 in 1886. 271 00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:50,890 well, the newspaper office burned in January of 87. 272 00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:52,900 I think one issue came out in 87. 273 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,480 that's one of the lost issues. 274 00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:58,180 Uh, they're all available except for maybe a dozen issues. 275 00:27:58,727 --> 00:27:59,147 Mm-Hmm. 276 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:08,470 Um, and, and the editor and founder was, uh, at Packard, who I mentioned at the beginning how young Tr and the Marquee were. 277 00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:10,300 They were 24 when they arrived here. 278 00:28:10,305 --> 00:28:11,590 Packard was even younger. 279 00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:13,000 He was fresh outta college. 280 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,050 He was like 22 years old when he founded the Badlands Cowboy. 281 00:28:17,623 --> 00:28:17,803 Oh. 282 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:24,130 So one, one thing that surprised me when, when I realized that is just how young a, a lot of these people were out here. 283 00:28:24,130 --> 00:28:32,690 They were just kids in their twenties, you know, making a name for themselves but the Badlands Cowboy is very, very interesting to browse. 284 00:28:32,690 --> 00:28:32,750 I. 285 00:28:32,948 --> 00:28:33,368 Mm-Hmm., 286 00:28:34,223 --> 00:28:50,758 Speaking of, trying to use those sources that are closest to the events, Haage Thorn's biography is based very much on the oral histories of Roosevelt's contemporaries who are recalling events from 35 years in the past. 287 00:28:51,067 --> 00:28:51,367 Yeah. 288 00:28:52,438 --> 00:28:57,608 so you know, based on your research then, um. 289 00:28:57,953 --> 00:29:15,530 You know, do we trust tr R's writings of his time in the West, um, on his own recollections, of decades later? Or is it better to look at those letters written closest to when the events occurred? Can you know, can we trust tr r's later recollections? I. 290 00:29:18,845 --> 00:29:22,535 The, the earliest recollection is probably the most accurate. 291 00:29:23,407 --> 00:29:23,697 Yeah. 292 00:29:23,710 --> 00:29:25,895 and it's, it's kind of ironic. 293 00:29:25,895 --> 00:29:47,015 There is a letter, uh, I came across this after the book was, printed, or I, I would've included it, but in, uh, I believe in 1908, TR wrote a letter to Edward Curtis, who was, uh, touring Indian reservations across the west, and, uh, a study of the Custer battle. 294 00:29:48,095 --> 00:29:59,495 And was interviewing some of the Indian Scouts and had some, what would've been kinda revolutionary new information based, uh, his talks with these Indian scouts. 295 00:30:01,115 --> 00:30:11,995 Uh, basically saying, uh, kind of critical of Custer and, uh, Roosevelt, you know, uh, wrote, wrote this response to Curtis basically saying, don't. 296 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,990 Don't pursue that. 297 00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:24,880 You know, Custer was a hero and he said something to the effect, you know, uh, anyone's recollections 35 years on be trusted. 298 00:30:26,770 --> 00:30:28,600 And I, I thought, wow, okay. 299 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:29,702 TR Yep. 300 00:30:29,843 --> 00:30:32,363 Well, indictment against yourself there. 301 00:30:32,423 --> 00:30:32,603 Yeah. 302 00:30:32,650 --> 00:30:33,970 true of anyone, of course. 303 00:30:33,970 --> 00:30:38,950 But, uh, but yeah, I think the earlier to the event, uh, the more accurate. 304 00:30:41,047 --> 00:30:52,927 Now, I know you've tried to separate the documentable truth what Edmond Morris described as TRS tendency for, was it humorous, exaggeration, and poetic license in storytelling. 305 00:30:52,987 --> 00:31:04,385 So what kind of feedback have you had from Roosevelt admirers regarding the myth busting? Yeah, it's actually been quite positive. 306 00:31:04,565 --> 00:31:04,835 Um, I. 307 00:31:05,955 --> 00:31:11,465 a great grandson of tr had, had read the book and, had known him for years. 308 00:31:11,470 --> 00:31:20,110 And, I had sent something to the effect, you may not like everything I, I say, but I, I said, I did document everything. 309 00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:21,752 I was careful to document Yeah. 310 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,860 And, and he had said, uh, I don't mind criticism of tr if it's fair. 311 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,680 And he, gimme some feedback. 312 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:29,830 He. 313 00:31:30,490 --> 00:31:31,810 was complimentary of the book. 314 00:31:31,810 --> 00:31:36,250 And he said, he said, you were very fair to tr you documented everything. 315 00:31:37,150 --> 00:31:41,410 And he said, I, I learned a lot about my great-grandfather by reading your book. 316 00:31:41,415 --> 00:31:43,960 So that, that was high praise to me. 317 00:31:44,197 --> 00:31:44,257 Yeah. 318 00:31:44,368 --> 00:31:44,818 I will see. 319 00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:51,340 And I, I felt very good, but I, I, I did try, uh, as I said earlier, you know, I, I try not to. 320 00:31:52,255 --> 00:32:00,925 too hard on tr uh, you know, it, uh, I think it's human nature to want to tell a good story, but I did wanna point out the differences. 321 00:32:00,925 --> 00:32:17,407 Uh, I think I mentioned earlier, to me the danger was that so many people just, uh, accept his writings uncritically and, uh I, I think the line should be, made clear on on what, what is documented fact and what is Yeah. 322 00:32:17,953 --> 00:32:18,373 Mm-Hmm. 323 00:32:19,187 --> 00:32:24,932 I like on every page you have the citations and footnotes and. 324 00:32:26,712 --> 00:32:29,202 When you put a quote, you give a citation for it. 325 00:32:30,012 --> 00:32:32,412 as good historians, we have to do that. 326 00:32:32,502 --> 00:32:40,602 We need to give citations so it's not just in a quote and you're like, where did this come from? Someone can go to that original source and look it up. 327 00:32:40,622 --> 00:32:41,012 Yeah. 328 00:32:41,102 --> 00:32:42,122 Well, thank you, Larry. 329 00:32:42,619 --> 00:32:43,009 yeaH. 330 00:32:43,102 --> 00:32:45,742 I, I was a little frustrated with Herman Hagadorn. 331 00:32:45,862 --> 00:32:53,319 Uh, you know, he listed his sources at the end of, of the narrative, but He didn't, uh, footnote, No. 332 00:32:53,772 --> 00:32:55,122 uh, his statements. 333 00:32:55,212 --> 00:32:59,267 You know, he listed his informants, but he didn't, uh, differentiate. 334 00:32:59,267 --> 00:33:18,377 And now, now that his notes are online, uh, gosh, he, uh, he had voluminous notes and, uh, I, I gained a more of an admiration for him when I realized all the information he had to sift through and, and try to decide what was worthy of being included and what was not. 335 00:33:19,274 --> 00:33:19,334 Yeah. 336 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:30,720 so Doug, you um, you published this collection of stories back in 2017, and I know that you're always actively researching tr in this time of the bad lands. 337 00:33:30,810 --> 00:33:37,025 Were there, you had made reference to this, um, Curtis' response regarding Custer. 338 00:33:37,025 --> 00:33:51,697 Are there any additional stories that that didn't get into your tales told as truth? I did find a couple, uh, short references that, uh, seen them, I would've included. 339 00:33:51,697 --> 00:33:55,207 And if, if the book's ever republished, I, I will include them. 340 00:33:55,207 --> 00:34:08,007 But if I could read those, uh, one is from a, a newspaper in 1893, and that's when TR was, he wasn't really nationally known yet, except through his writings. 341 00:34:08,097 --> 00:34:13,477 But 1893, he was, uh, on the Civil Service Commission and, uh. 342 00:34:14,347 --> 00:34:17,187 Th this is from Jamestown, North Dakota. 343 00:34:18,207 --> 00:34:24,507 And the reporter was, was interviewing Howard Eaton, who was coming through on the train. 344 00:34:24,507 --> 00:34:28,887 And Howard Eaton was a little Missouri pioneer, uh, who arrived during 1880. 345 00:34:29,787 --> 00:34:34,437 see his name a lot in the, uh, Badlands Cowboy newspaper and, and other sources. 346 00:34:34,452 --> 00:34:39,237 But this reporter was interviewing Howard Eaton in 1893. 347 00:34:40,497 --> 00:34:50,547 And he says, the haze that surrounds Western Adventures as depicted in the Eastern press and magazines generally sufficient to conceal about all the truth there is in the stories. 348 00:34:51,417 --> 00:34:58,617 Readers will remember that civil service reformer Roosevelt of New York a few years ago wrote a series of articles for Century Magazine. 349 00:34:59,472 --> 00:35:05,592 In which his explorations on life as a western cowboy were graphically portrayed any old time. 350 00:35:05,592 --> 00:35:06,807 Stockman says, Mr. 351 00:35:06,807 --> 00:35:16,962 Eaton, who reads the Roosevelt articles will smile to himself at the power of imagination they display and the wide divergence of many of the escapades and adventures from the facts. 352 00:35:19,302 --> 00:35:23,592 So, so even Howard Eaton was chuckling at, at TRS stories. 353 00:35:23,652 --> 00:35:27,822 And, uh, there's one more I I came across, if I could read that. 354 00:35:28,689 --> 00:35:38,104 This is actually a, correspondent from Minneapolis, Minnesota, who, through the Badlands. 355 00:35:38,919 --> 00:35:42,789 So at that time, uh, tr I guess would've been governor of New York. 356 00:35:42,789 --> 00:35:44,979 He was becoming more, more nationally known. 357 00:35:45,779 --> 00:36:04,919 But, uh, this Minneapolis reporter, he came through here, he said it is also related of Teddy, that he possessed all the cleverness of Anthony Hope in making a strong calcium light, follow himself through most of his own narratives, thus in one of his books of life in the Badlands. 358 00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:20,069 He tells of a desperate shooting of fray at Medora, which he did not witness as he was at the time, en route to the scene of action and was swimming his horse across the river, quote, holding his rifle high above his head, unquote. 359 00:36:20,939 --> 00:36:26,579 One old fellow whom I ran across at Medora recalled this story and stamped it as a most wonderful feat. 360 00:36:27,389 --> 00:36:32,489 The simple act of braving the raging little Missouri on horseback was not what provoked astonishment. 361 00:36:32,924 --> 00:36:35,954 He was not the narrator's forethought in keeping his powder dry. 362 00:36:36,704 --> 00:36:49,184 The real cause of admiration, vouchsafed, after various questionings the fact that on the same day the shooting occurred, Mickelson had crossed the river on the ice with 4,400 pounds on his wagon. 363 00:36:51,614 --> 00:36:58,034 But for all that the correspondent said, but for all that petty has a niche of honor in every household in the Badlands. 364 00:36:58,844 --> 00:37:05,174 perilous passage of the river is told as a good joke that grows better as its subject mounts higher on the ladder of fame. 365 00:37:06,434 --> 00:37:08,629 And, that shooting, uh, actually occurred. 366 00:37:08,629 --> 00:37:11,779 It occurred in November of 1884. 367 00:37:11,809 --> 00:37:14,599 Tiara was still out here, uh, late that year. 368 00:37:15,379 --> 00:37:16,879 So the shooting was in November. 369 00:37:17,179 --> 00:37:22,939 And, uh, again, t in, um, one of his articles, I forget which, uh. 370 00:37:23,869 --> 00:37:26,629 Article or chapter that of his book that's in. 371 00:37:26,659 --> 00:37:42,107 But yeah, he did describe, you know, swimming the raging little Missouri hearing the gunshots and well, as the guy pointed out, that was in November and they were freighting up and down the ice So, Details. 372 00:37:42,112 --> 00:37:42,272 Yeah. 373 00:37:42,471 --> 00:37:42,541 is. 374 00:37:43,831 --> 00:37:44,341 Yes. 375 00:37:45,541 --> 00:37:55,074 So of all the Theodore Roosevelt stories from his time in the Badlands, what one's your favorite? Um, I, I thought you might ask that. 376 00:37:55,074 --> 00:38:14,604 So, it's actually, uh,, it's not so much a specific, uh, incident, but in, in his autobiography, Roosevelt talks about a time when, and, uh, his hired man Merrifield were coming back from the Bighorn Mountains on a hunting trip and, uh. 377 00:38:15,444 --> 00:38:23,934 Ti wrote, uh, several times about his solitary trips through the Badlands, but this one struck me especially. 378 00:38:24,264 --> 00:38:32,124 And, uh, they, they get close to home and Tiara and Merrifield decide to strike out, leave the wagon behind, and strike out on their own. 379 00:38:33,054 --> 00:38:36,174 It's just a, a great descriptive passage. 380 00:38:36,234 --> 00:38:41,124 Uh, Tiara says it was a beautiful moonlight night, the ride was delightful. 381 00:38:42,084 --> 00:38:47,514 All day long we had plotted along at a walk weary and hot at suppertime. 382 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:52,764 We rested two or three hours, and the tough little horses seemed as fresh as ever it was in September. 383 00:38:53,484 --> 00:39:00,444 As we rode out of the circle of firelight, the air was cooling our faces the bright moonlight and then under the starlight. 384 00:39:00,714 --> 00:39:08,064 We loped and encountered mile after mile over the high prairie, we passed bands of antelope and herds of Longhorn, Texas cattle. 385 00:39:08,754 --> 00:39:17,724 And at last, just as the first red beams of the sun flamed over the bluffs in front of us, we rode down into the valley of the Little Missouri, where our ranch house stood. 386 00:39:18,909 --> 00:39:21,009 And I, I just think that's a beautiful passage. 387 00:39:21,009 --> 00:39:22,021 And, and to Yeah. 388 00:39:22,179 --> 00:39:32,859 uh, when I think of tr in the Badlands, I, I just think of his descriptions of, of, uh, riding, riding through the Badlands and enjoying the, the scenery and the solitude. 389 00:39:33,879 --> 00:39:36,859 So to, to me, that's tr in the Badlands. 390 00:39:37,651 --> 00:39:39,232 That is Yeah. 391 00:39:39,382 --> 00:39:40,072 That's beautiful. 392 00:39:40,072 --> 00:39:45,682 He, he really was a, is, a tremendous landscape artist with, with words. 393 00:39:45,862 --> 00:39:46,726 Um, yes. 394 00:39:46,999 --> 00:39:47,842 Very yeah. 395 00:39:47,869 --> 00:39:48,289 Yeah. 396 00:39:48,769 --> 00:39:50,839 But o obviously it's well known. 397 00:39:50,839 --> 00:39:56,881 You, you guys promote that more than anyone on how the Badlands changed his life and, uh, Hmm. 398 00:39:57,919 --> 00:40:01,099 it's just easy to imagine him, uh, you know, writing. 399 00:40:02,104 --> 00:40:06,481 He, he was with Merrifield there, but often he was alone, you know, Yeah. 400 00:40:06,649 --> 00:40:10,604 with his own thoughts, kind of finding his center, so to speak. 401 00:40:10,862 --> 00:40:11,282 mm-Hmm. 402 00:40:13,132 --> 00:40:16,232 Well, we will follow that beautiful passage with one more. 403 00:40:16,472 --> 00:40:29,532 Uh, could we ask you to read, could we ask you to read, from your, your epilogue? We, uh, Larry and I both very much enjoy the epilogue to your book Look. 404 00:40:29,814 --> 00:40:31,944 Okay, I will do that. 405 00:40:32,184 --> 00:40:39,474 Um, yeah, I say Theodore Roosevelt was possessed by an energetic and enthusiastic personality. 406 00:40:39,834 --> 00:40:42,414 It governed his thoughts and influenced his actions. 407 00:40:43,104 --> 00:40:53,634 It allowed him to form his ideal vision of the future, such as minutely describing a cabin home that did not yet exist, and to reshape the events of his past into what he felt they should have been. 408 00:40:55,164 --> 00:41:00,264 He did not apparently denigrate others by doing so, and thus, only literal history was cheated. 409 00:41:01,494 --> 00:41:04,284 Lippy Slim remains the most wanted outlaw in the land. 410 00:41:04,704 --> 00:41:11,514 We know Theodore Roosevelt arrested him because Roosevelt said he did, but Lippy was not hanged by Stewart Stranglers. 411 00:41:11,814 --> 00:41:13,194 In fact, he never died. 412 00:41:13,974 --> 00:41:18,294 He escaped to the shadows and he still lives in the mythology of the American West. 413 00:41:19,074 --> 00:41:23,724 taunts us from the next hilltop and then the next, and so the pursuit continues. 414 00:41:24,699 --> 00:41:27,369 Lippy would swear to the truth of every tale told here. 415 00:41:27,369 --> 00:41:30,459 If only we like Roosevelt could catch and question him. 416 00:41:33,072 --> 00:41:34,062 That's great, girl. 417 00:41:34,302 --> 00:41:35,112 That's great. 418 00:41:35,289 --> 00:41:36,549 still out there somewhere. 419 00:41:37,191 --> 00:41:37,341 Yep. 420 00:41:39,351 --> 00:41:41,781 Oh, Doug, this has been a terrific conversation. 421 00:41:42,249 --> 00:41:43,161 No wonderful. 422 00:41:44,031 --> 00:41:51,231 Um, I'm curious, how can people find your book? Theodore Roosevelt and Tales told his truth of his time in the West. 423 00:41:51,909 --> 00:41:55,419 Yeah, I, I'm not much of AER a bookstore. 424 00:41:55,511 --> 00:41:57,261 We'll have, we'll have to reedit that. 425 00:41:57,667 --> 00:42:04,122 I'm sorry, I've, my daughter's dog has chosen, this is the time. 426 00:42:06,582 --> 00:42:07,512 Oh my goodness. 427 00:42:08,262 --> 00:42:08,652 Okay. 428 00:42:08,657 --> 00:42:11,346 Can we, can, we can redo that. 429 00:42:11,622 --> 00:42:16,487 can we take it from the top there with, uh, uh, with Larry's lead in. 430 00:42:16,506 --> 00:42:17,241 Yeah, that's fine. 431 00:42:18,121 --> 00:42:18,241 if. 432 00:42:19,086 --> 00:42:25,026 I, I've had to mute my microphone a couple times 'cause my, the bedroom I'm in is right up against the street. 433 00:42:25,146 --> 00:42:28,356 And so people in this town love to right through. 434 00:42:28,356 --> 00:42:30,066 So Uh, yeah. 435 00:42:30,126 --> 00:42:30,546 Anyway. 436 00:42:30,936 --> 00:42:31,536 All right. 437 00:42:32,826 --> 00:42:34,926 Well, Doug, this has been a terrific conversation. 438 00:42:34,926 --> 00:42:36,066 We've really enjoyed it. 439 00:42:36,966 --> 00:42:44,646 And I'm curious, how can folks find your book? Theodore Roosevelt entails told his truth of his time in the West. 440 00:42:46,209 --> 00:42:49,359 well, I'm, I'm not much of a marketer, so I, I. 441 00:42:49,749 --> 00:42:53,139 I have it in my bookstore in Medora, Western Edge Books. 442 00:42:54,189 --> 00:43:09,939 Um, I guess, uh, the easiest way is, uh, wife Mary and I, uh, have an inn called Amble Inn Lodging Western Edge Books, and we have a, a Facebook page, amble Okay, Western Edge Books. 443 00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:19,299 And if you just want to direct messages on, on the Facebook page, uh, we'll get the message and, uh, give you the details, uh, that way that might be the easiest. 444 00:43:20,331 --> 00:43:22,911 Yeah, we can put the link for that on our website. 445 00:43:23,407 --> 00:43:23,977 You bet. 446 00:43:25,337 --> 00:43:25,877 Wow, Doug. 447 00:43:25,882 --> 00:43:26,327 Thanks. 448 00:43:26,327 --> 00:43:27,827 That's what a great conversation. 449 00:43:27,827 --> 00:43:32,282 We, uh, we so appreciate you joining us on the talk about Teddy podcast. 450 00:43:33,991 --> 00:43:34,651 Yes. 451 00:43:34,714 --> 00:43:35,414 for the invitation. 452 00:43:35,574 --> 00:43:36,414 I, I've enjoyed it.