Episode 3 - Roosevelt's Ranches

1 00:00:00,980 --> 00:00:03,760 Welcome Rolfe to the talk about Teddy podcast. 2 00:00:04,030 --> 00:00:04,960 Thank you for joining us. 3 00:00:05,439 --> 00:00:06,279 Thank you. 4 00:00:06,459 --> 00:00:08,469 Thank you for having me on your podcast. 5 00:00:09,410 --> 00:00:23,694 we wanted to ask, how did you come to be interested in Theodore Roosevelt and his time in the West? Well many years ago, actually, in the early 1980s, I was married to Harold Schafer's daughter. 6 00:00:23,694 --> 00:00:31,329 And Harold, of course, was the man that was most responsible for restoring and reviving for rebuilding Medora. 7 00:00:31,614 --> 00:00:34,854 And so I started to spend a lot of time in Madera. 8 00:00:35,214 --> 00:00:39,864 Harold was a big TR fan, but maybe more important than that. 9 00:00:40,344 --> 00:00:50,814 As I spent more and more time there, I became a little bit frustrated because it seemed to me that people would come into town, they'd stay for a weekend or for a few days, would leave. 10 00:00:51,279 --> 00:00:57,489 Most of them probably knew that Theodore Roosevelt did some ranching in the area at one time. 11 00:00:58,449 --> 00:01:03,279 most of 'em probably wouldn't be able to tell you where those ranches were or just when he was there. 12 00:01:03,729 --> 00:01:10,179 And they knew something a little bit about the Marqui de Mos, who was the Frenchman, who, who started the town. 13 00:01:10,899 --> 00:01:17,169 there's so much more to the history and I felt that most people weren't absorbing very much of that. 14 00:01:17,174 --> 00:01:31,989 And so my original idea was that I would write what I envisioned as kind of a large pamphlet talking about some of the events, some of the people, some of the places that make Madera's history so fascinating. 15 00:01:32,559 --> 00:01:36,579 And then as I started to research, I found more and more and more material. 16 00:01:36,579 --> 00:01:41,339 And that pamphlet actually turned out to be my, my first book. 17 00:01:41,339 --> 00:01:42,659 Well, it's very good book too. 18 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:43,169 Yes. 19 00:01:43,689 --> 00:01:47,749 Well, we're always interested in the sources that, that folks use. 20 00:01:47,809 --> 00:01:51,549 And and you've documented a goodly number of those sources. 21 00:01:51,609 --> 00:01:56,840 But I mean, your, your book is this, beautifully illustrated Yes. 22 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:56,841 Yes. 23 00:01:56,849 --> 00:02:01,189 record of ranches and his time in the bad Lands. 24 00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:10,979 But can you speak to some of the sources that you, you found most helpful? Well, the very best sources are trs own writings. 25 00:02:11,349 --> 00:02:13,819 His books and his letters. 26 00:02:14,259 --> 00:02:23,959 He of course besides his autobiography, he wrote three books that deal either entirely or in very large part with his experiences in the Badlands. 27 00:02:25,009 --> 00:02:27,649 and then of course, he was a prolific letter writer. 28 00:02:27,649 --> 00:02:27,709 I. 29 00:02:28,534 --> 00:02:35,754 so his letters document quite a lot of what he did and what he was thinking about when he was in the Badlands. 30 00:02:35,814 --> 00:02:39,804 Beyond that, the best sources would be newspaper articles. 31 00:02:39,804 --> 00:02:56,214 I spent a lot of time reading the Badlands Cowboy newspaper, which of course was the local newspaper in Medora between 1884 and 1886, published by the man named at Packard, who was a very important character in early days, Medora. 32 00:02:57,064 --> 00:03:01,414 Then there are letters written by some of Roosevelt's contemporaries. 33 00:03:01,464 --> 00:03:06,504 Most of those people didn't write a lot of letters, or if they did, those are not extent. 34 00:03:06,984 --> 00:03:20,914 But bill Sewell in particular kept up a regular correspondence with his family in the in Maine, bill and Wilmont Dow, of course, were the managers of Elkhorn Ranch, Mm-Hmm. 35 00:03:21,399 --> 00:03:24,009 for almost the entirety of its well. 36 00:03:24,654 --> 00:03:26,214 For much of its existence. 37 00:03:27,264 --> 00:03:34,064 And of course it was very helpful to read the works written about Roosevelt experiences in the Badlands written by other writers. 38 00:03:34,114 --> 00:03:46,925 And among the best I would say were Edmund Morris, Roger Silvestro and Carlton Putnam, who wrote the formative years in I think 1956 Okay, Yeah. 39 00:03:47,009 --> 00:03:53,829 will put some of those up on on our website for for some folks to get some more background reading if they're not familiar with that. 40 00:03:54,279 --> 00:04:04,369 For those who don't have the pleasure of having this book in front of them it is Lavishly Illustrated with amazing sketchings and, and historic photographs. 41 00:04:04,369 --> 00:04:05,939 Can you talk about some of those. 42 00:04:07,189 --> 00:04:16,554 Well very interestingly Theodore Roosevelt had a camera in the Badlands, and so he took, a number of photos, quite a few. 43 00:04:16,614 --> 00:04:17,994 No one knows how many. 44 00:04:18,084 --> 00:04:19,855 At least I don't think anyone knows Mm-Hmm. 45 00:04:20,064 --> 00:04:23,064 because some of those photos haven't been found. 46 00:04:24,564 --> 00:04:29,549 but we know that he took his camera along on his pursuit of the boat thieves. 47 00:04:29,919 --> 00:04:35,079 We know that he had his camera at the Maltis Cross Ranch fairly early on. 48 00:04:35,739 --> 00:04:44,309 And so there are many pictures taken by Roosevelt himself in the Badlands in the 1880s in this book. 49 00:04:45,159 --> 00:04:46,719 those are probably my favorites. 50 00:04:46,749 --> 00:04:52,579 There was one that I found I originally saw it on the page of the Mandan Historical Society. 51 00:04:53,749 --> 00:05:08,819 And it shows, Joe Ferris, Ylva Ferris, bill Merrifield, and a fourth character who I'm convinced is Lincoln Lang taken in the 1880s in a studio in Mandan Mandan, North Dakota. 52 00:05:09,604 --> 00:05:11,499 And that's a wonderful photo. 53 00:05:11,499 --> 00:05:12,369 One of my favorites. 54 00:05:12,369 --> 00:05:15,039 I hadn't seen it before I started doing this research, though. 55 00:05:15,039 --> 00:05:17,469 It was a, a wonder, fun thing to find. 56 00:05:17,780 --> 00:05:18,070 Yeah. 57 00:05:18,075 --> 00:05:24,475 You see Joe Ferris in the store in Medora at the Joe Ferris General Store, and he is older. 58 00:05:24,625 --> 00:05:27,925 It's one of the like late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds. 59 00:05:27,925 --> 00:05:33,385 But when you see him in that photograph that you found, that's the Joe Ferris that Theodore Roosevelt knew. 60 00:05:34,419 --> 00:05:36,069 Yes, that's exactly right. 61 00:05:36,069 --> 00:05:38,905 All of those men are very young men Mm-Hmm. 62 00:05:39,159 --> 00:05:41,409 and they were Roosevelt's contemporaries. 63 00:05:42,289 --> 00:05:44,839 see you using a lot of Remington sketches. 64 00:05:44,929 --> 00:05:54,739 And Roosevelt had this, relationship early on with Frederick Remington and, and actually commissioned Remington to create a lot of these sketches. 65 00:05:54,739 --> 00:06:00,199 Some of them maybe from some of his own photographs in some of his works like Ranch Life and Hunting Trail. 66 00:06:00,899 --> 00:06:04,769 It's, it's really neat how you, how you integrate those into this story too. 67 00:06:05,974 --> 00:06:06,724 Well, thank you. 68 00:06:06,729 --> 00:06:07,294 Yes. 69 00:06:07,344 --> 00:06:17,219 Roosevelt, Ted Remington draw 90 some photos for Ranch Life and a lot of those are based, or some of those are based on photographs that Roosevelt took. 70 00:06:18,139 --> 00:06:26,229 Also in hunting trips, there's a photo of the chimney Butte, if you compare the sketch. 71 00:06:26,769 --> 00:06:27,759 That's in that book. 72 00:06:27,759 --> 00:06:30,159 It's not a photo, it's a sketch and an etching. 73 00:06:30,249 --> 00:06:38,289 If you compare the sketch to the actual skyline, it's exact, it's exact. 74 00:06:38,509 --> 00:06:38,729 Hmm. 75 00:06:39,819 --> 00:06:43,560 some artists didn't do this just by conjuring it up out of his No. 76 00:06:43,694 --> 00:06:46,149 or based on a description that Roosevelt gave them. 77 00:06:46,539 --> 00:06:52,779 It had to be ba based on a photo that Roosevelt had taken of that place. 78 00:06:53,229 --> 00:06:59,679 So it makes you wonder how many other Roosevelt photos, photographs are out there that have never been found. 79 00:06:59,679 --> 00:07:08,030 And, and where are they? Yeah, I, I've often wondered, I know what the Elkhorn, since he had the root cellar and would develop the plates there. 80 00:07:08,690 --> 00:07:19,021 I know there's been things found there, but I don't know if anyone has ever excavated that deep to look at the root cellar, so, Well, they did the national Park Service did that in about 1959 or okay. 81 00:07:19,428.75 --> 00:07:20,476.25 19 60. 82 00:07:20,476.25 --> 00:07:25,517.25 And they found evidence there that clearly established that there was a photo Mm-Hmm. 83 00:07:25,846.25 --> 00:07:37,737.25 there was enough remaining for them to see where Roosevelt, or I'm sure it was probably Wil Modal and Bill Sewell that did the actual work, but where they had light proof that space, that Wow. 84 00:07:37,926.25 --> 00:07:40,836.25 space where Roosevelt developed his photos. 85 00:07:41,681.25 --> 00:07:42,382.25 I think Wow. 86 00:07:42,556.25 --> 00:07:47,585.25 now, Larry, to Roosevelt's growing list of accomplishments Yes, S photographer. 87 00:07:47,885.25 --> 00:07:48,215.25 Yeah. 88 00:07:49,36.25 --> 00:07:50,116.25 No, he was very good. 89 00:07:50,116.25 --> 00:07:52,786.25 I mean, some of those are the only pictures known to exist of. 90 00:07:53,761.25 --> 00:07:59,861.25 You know, the cowboy life in the Badlands in the 1880s? That's exactly right. 91 00:07:59,981.25 --> 00:08:01,771.25 And the photos are very good. 92 00:08:02,611.25 --> 00:08:04,21.25 The focus is so great. 93 00:08:04,21.25 --> 00:08:06,421.25 You wonder what happened to, to some of the others. 94 00:08:06,421.25 --> 00:08:12,481.25 Why don't we have them? They, they couldn't have been, I'm sure they weren't all bad photos that were thrown away. 95 00:08:12,481.25 --> 00:08:13,711.25 His photos are very good. 96 00:08:14,711.25 --> 00:08:23,171.25 So when you were researching, did you find something that surprised you? I was just amazed at how far these people would ride their horses. 97 00:08:23,981.25 --> 00:08:24,941.25 Long, long ways. 98 00:08:24,941.25 --> 00:08:31,566.25 Tr for example, sometimes headed out to ride from the Maltese cross to the Elkhorn. 99 00:08:31,626.25 --> 00:08:34,896.25 That's 30 miles, but it's 30 miles through the Badlands. 100 00:08:35,236.25 --> 00:08:41,426.25 Which is means that you're on a very, very circuitous path particularly if the river is high. 101 00:08:41,666.25 --> 00:08:45,416.25 But at the best of times it's far, far from a straight line. 102 00:08:45,746.25 --> 00:08:50,622.25 And I remember on one occasion, and particularly headed out late in the day, it mm-Hmm. 103 00:08:50,846.25 --> 00:08:52,736.25 of the winter, it was bitterly cold. 104 00:08:52,976.25 --> 00:08:57,146.25 He knew it was going to get dark a long time before he got to the Elkhorn. 105 00:08:57,176.25 --> 00:08:59,246.25 There's no road leading to the Elkhorn. 106 00:08:59,251.25 --> 00:09:01,286.25 He's just finding his way through the Badlands. 107 00:09:01,766.25 --> 00:09:04,136.25 All of that stuff me. 108 00:09:05,71.25 --> 00:09:10,51.25 done a lot of horseback riding, or at least I did when I was younger and, wow. 109 00:09:10,51.25 --> 00:09:11,102.25 These people Mm-Hmm. 110 00:09:11,221.25 --> 00:09:12,151.25 They were really tough. 111 00:09:13,447.25 --> 00:09:21,242.25 Now we've mentioned him being out in the Badlands, what brought Theodore Roosevelt to the Badlands of Dakota territory as it was called at the time. 112 00:09:23,226.25 --> 00:09:27,256.25 Well, he came for one very specific purpose and that was to shoot a buffalo. 113 00:09:27,642.25 --> 00:09:27,762.25 I. 114 00:09:28,36.25 --> 00:09:32,236.25 tr said that he wanted to shoot a buffalo while there was still a buffalo to shoot. 115 00:09:32,806.25 --> 00:09:41,691.25 What had happened was that he was a speaker at a meeting of the New York Fair Trade society and fair Trade Club. 116 00:09:42,126.25 --> 00:09:55,386.25 And while he was there, he met a man named Henry Goring, who has a long and kind of interesting history, but to cut to the Chase Goring and a couple of his partners had purchased the old Army containment. 117 00:09:56,106.25 --> 00:10:06,666.25 other words, the small fort that was built up in 18 seven between 1879 and 1883, just across the river from where Medora is now. 118 00:10:06,696.25 --> 00:10:09,546.25 So we'll say a half mile west of Medora. 119 00:10:10,386.25 --> 00:10:13,291.25 And, the Army had abandoned it by 1883. 120 00:10:13,291.25 --> 00:10:21,751.25 Gorge and his partners had purchased it, and their intention was to turn it into a hunting camp or an outfitting camp for hunters and for tourists. 121 00:10:22,51.25 --> 00:10:29,766.25 And so Henry Gorings was telling Roosevelt that about all the hunting possibilities there and all the buffalo in the area. 122 00:10:30,156.25 --> 00:10:33,936.25 And at the time they're having this conversation in the spring of 1883. 123 00:10:33,936.25 --> 00:10:34,626.25 That was true. 124 00:10:34,626.25 --> 00:10:37,716.25 There were still a lot of buffalo in the area. 125 00:10:38,146.25 --> 00:10:44,731.25 So any internet, they made plans to go together to Dakota to make the buffalo hunt in the fall. 126 00:10:45,481.25 --> 00:10:55,501.25 shortly before they were to leave, Goran bailed out on tr and so tr was left with the choice of either going it alone or abandoning the whole idea. 127 00:10:55,501.25 --> 00:11:03,961.25 He decided to press on without gorran, and that's what brought him to Dakota and to the area we now know as Madera. 128 00:11:04,931.25 --> 00:11:18,401.25 Well, you mentioned in your book I was looking for it here while you were talking, but literally that summer there had been two very large commissioned hunts that decimated a goodly amount of what was left of the bison in that region. 129 00:11:19,101.25 --> 00:11:21,21.25 Maybe upwards of 15,000. 130 00:11:21,231.25 --> 00:11:29,331.25 And so what, what did Roosevelt find? When he gets out there and is tramping around with his guide Joe Ferris looking for that first bison. 131 00:11:30,236.25 --> 00:11:32,366.25 Yeah, it's just exactly as you say. 132 00:11:32,426.25 --> 00:11:42,926.25 When he and Gorge had the discussion in the spring of 1883, it was true that there was still a lot of buffalo around, but by the time Roosevelt got there in September, they had virtually been wiped out. 133 00:11:43,706.25 --> 00:11:50,256.25 it was the end of the, the Great Northern herd, as it's called occurred during that summer. 134 00:11:51,66.25 --> 00:11:52,686.25 and two massive hunts. 135 00:11:52,786.25 --> 00:11:58,366.25 And so when Roosevelt got there, he engaged Joe Ferris to be his guide for the hunting trip. 136 00:11:58,816.25 --> 00:12:02,896.25 And they set out, down to a ranch run by a guy named Gregor Lang. 137 00:12:02,896.25 --> 00:12:11,326.25 It's almost 40 miles down south of Medora, at that time, there was nothing between the railroad track and the Black Hills except Medora. 138 00:12:11,326.25 --> 00:12:15,616.25 So even though they were 40 miles away, they were still considered to be Medora people. 139 00:12:16,196.25 --> 00:12:27,396.25 So in any event Gregor Lang Lang did act as host for Roosevelt and for Joe Fares, but they hunted for almost two weeks before Roosevelt finally shot a bull buffalo. 140 00:12:27,876.25 --> 00:12:30,852.25 And the hunt proved to be extremely Yeah. 141 00:12:31,126.25 --> 00:12:37,701.25 Terrible weather huge amounts of rain, and very little, very very few buffalo who to be found. 142 00:12:37,911.25 --> 00:12:44,621.25 They did see a few, but, after very, very hard hunting that I think would've discouraged almost anybody else. 143 00:12:45,57.25 --> 00:12:46,917.25 Yeah, it did discourage Joe Ferris. 144 00:12:47,97.25 --> 00:12:50,217.25 He was ready to go back home, That's correct. 145 00:12:51,283.25 --> 00:12:56,803.25 And then he looks over at tr, who's laying there in the mud and t's reaction of by Godfrey. 146 00:12:56,808.25 --> 00:12:57,613.25 But this is fun. 147 00:12:58,632.25 --> 00:12:59,362.25 This is fun. 148 00:13:00,442.25 --> 00:13:15,882.25 And then so then when he does finally get his bison after nearly two weeks of being out and about tramping through mud and the clay and the gumbo and getting thrown from horses and, and he finally gets that bison and, and he. 149 00:13:16,737.25 --> 00:13:18,687.25 Hands, his guy Joe Ferris. 150 00:13:18,687.25 --> 00:13:22,158.25 What a a hundred dollars bill? A It was a big gift No. 151 00:13:23,552.25 --> 00:13:45,37.25 So what role did that trip have in his future, in, in ranching? Did he make any decisions that, that while he was there, that trip? Oh, yes, that of course was huge and probably quite impulsive in that he came there to shoot a buffalo and his wife Alice is waiting back in New York for him. 152 00:13:45,97.25 --> 00:13:57,547.25 And then he wrote her a letter when he first got there, and he described his experiences of arriving in the Badlands and it was basically a litany of complaints about the hotel and the people and the grass. 153 00:13:57,547.25 --> 00:14:04,147.25 And he said even the milk tasted of alkali and the water was awful and, and nothing was right he. 154 00:14:05,107.25 --> 00:14:18,917.25 off on the hunt with Joe Ferris, and within about 10 days he was so captivated by the Badlands that he decided to get into the ranching business and purchased the Maltese cross ranch. 155 00:14:19,817.25 --> 00:14:32,117.25 the land of course, but he purchased the cattle and went into the ranching business and then wrote Alice another letter and told her that she was now a rancher's wife, which had to come as a bit of a surprise. 156 00:14:32,983.25 --> 00:14:36,209.25 Well, from that letter from your book and page? mm-hmm. 157 00:14:36,213.25 --> 00:14:38,33.25 me see what page 35. 158 00:14:38,223.25 --> 00:14:38,523.25 Sure. 159 00:14:38,998.25 --> 00:14:41,668.25 I got, just took a couple of excerpts here. 160 00:14:42,148.25 --> 00:14:45,748.25 So this is Roosevelt writing to, like you said to his wife Alice. 161 00:14:45,938.25 --> 00:14:53,193.25 The more convinced I became that there was a chance to make a great deal of money very safely in the cattle business. 162 00:14:53,493.25 --> 00:15:15,363.25 Accordingly, I've decided to go into it cautiously at first, and if I come out well the first year much more heavily, as time comes on, it will go a long way towards solving the problem that's puzzled us both a good deal at times, how I'm to make more money as our needs increase, and yet try to keep in a position from which I may be called at some future time. 163 00:15:15,843.25 --> 00:15:17,223.25 To go into public life. 164 00:15:18,423.25 --> 00:15:21,303.25 So Yep, safe venture of cattle ranching. 165 00:15:21,774.25 --> 00:15:22,164.25 Yeah. 166 00:15:22,493.25 --> 00:15:28,883.25 But my favorite line in that letter is when he tells her that, of course it is all subject to your happiness. 167 00:15:28,883.25 --> 00:15:29,814.25 Or Yes. 168 00:15:29,843.25 --> 00:15:35,273.25 have that quote exactly right, but eh, this is after he wrote the checks. 169 00:15:35,574.25 --> 00:15:36,84.25 Yeah. 170 00:15:37,108.25 --> 00:15:43,413.25 So he writes the check on the spot for how much money are we talking here? $14,000, I believe. 171 00:15:43,463.25 --> 00:15:46,733.25 A third of a million dollars in today's dollars. 172 00:15:48,29.25 --> 00:15:54,29.25 And it's more than he had as an entire yearly allotment from his father's inheritance. 173 00:15:54,89.25 --> 00:15:55,349.25 So, yeah. 174 00:15:56,519.25 --> 00:15:58,589.25 And all this time he's sending these letters back. 175 00:15:58,594.25 --> 00:16:00,789.25 Alice is pregnant, That's true. 176 00:16:01,285.25 --> 00:16:01,795.25 Yeah. 177 00:16:02,209.25 --> 00:16:07,85.25 I don't think Alice ever pictured himself as a rancher's wife, but Yeah. 178 00:16:07,640.25 --> 00:16:08,870.25 A lady from Boston. 179 00:16:08,960.25 --> 00:16:09,380.25 Yes. 180 00:16:09,584.25 --> 00:16:10,214.25 her joy. 181 00:16:10,274.25 --> 00:16:10,544.25 Yeah. 182 00:16:10,549.25 --> 00:16:13,154.25 You're, you're now the wife of a Western cattle w rancher. 183 00:16:13,490.25 --> 00:16:16,154.25 Oh, We've talked about his ranches. 184 00:16:16,424.25 --> 00:16:35,253.25 What was the Maltese cross like when Roosevelt first arrived and then when he came back? So Roosevelt spent those, we'll say two weeks, a little bit less than that there in September of 1883 when he decided to buy the ranch. 185 00:16:35,563.25 --> 00:16:43,993.25 At that time, the two ranch managers who had started the ranch, Mayfield and Sylva Ferris were living in a shack. 186 00:16:44,323.25 --> 00:16:47,533.25 It was built stockade style out of posts. 187 00:16:47,653.25 --> 00:16:50,833.25 So the posts were set up vertically in the ground. 188 00:16:51,703.25 --> 00:16:53,83.25 it had a dirt floor. 189 00:16:53,443.25 --> 00:16:55,993.25 It was extremely rough. 190 00:16:57,103.25 --> 00:16:57,823.25 Roosevelt. 191 00:16:58,258.25 --> 00:17:00,418.25 Told him he wanted to have a better house. 192 00:17:00,568.25 --> 00:17:05,688.25 And so after he, after he purchased the branch and told him to build one which they did. 193 00:17:05,688.25 --> 00:17:09,408.25 So when he came back in 1884, he found the new house there. 194 00:17:10,193.25 --> 00:17:16,368.25 this cabin has a very, very interesting history that could be discussed for long time. 195 00:17:16,398.25 --> 00:17:31,593.25 But uh, it was built out of railroad ties that had been cut by a man named Bly actually had a huge crew of men working down in the northwest corner of South Dakota and was called the Short Pine Hills. 196 00:17:31,923.25 --> 00:17:34,413.25 His idea was to float the, the ties. 197 00:17:34,683.25 --> 00:17:42,243.25 He had a contract with the railroad and they produced something like a hundred thousand ties and timbers, and these things were hued on four sides. 198 00:17:42,643.25 --> 00:17:44,623.25 It was a massive undertaking. 199 00:17:45,388.25 --> 00:17:50,318.25 threw them in the river and floated them down to approximately where Medora is right now. 200 00:17:50,318.25 --> 00:17:53,408.25 And there they built a boom across the river to capture the logs. 201 00:17:53,408.25 --> 00:18:00,518.25 Well, the river rises and falls and the twists and turns and huge numbers of these ties ended up on the riverbank. 202 00:18:00,908.25 --&gt