Episode 17 - Remembering Theodore Roosevelt with Michael Patrick Cullinane

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Dr.

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Michael Cullinan, welcome back to the Talk About Teddy podcast.

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We're delighted to have you with us to talk about your book Remembering Theodore Roosevelt.

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Go, round two, I'm looking forward to it.

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Michael, I was wondering if you could talk to our listeners about, how is it that you stumble into this, um, historical researcher's dream of coming across undiscovered, manuscripts and recordings, having to do with the world of Theodore Roosevelt? Yeah, so it's luck really, I mean, as it, as it would happen.

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Um, I was looking through a collection of transcripts at Columbia University, an oral history archive that was made by Herman Hagedorn and his daughter, Mary, along with the Theodore Roosevelt Association and, um, dozens of other people who were the interviewees.

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And, uh, these are all transcripts that are available that many researchers have looked at in the past.

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And I was talking then at an event in 2017 or 2018 with Susan Sarna, who is formerly of Sagamore Hill, the chief curator there.

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She's now at the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library as the senior collections curator there.

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And Sue is, uh, she knows just about everything there is to know about.

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the archives and the collections and the objects that, you know, we associate with TR.

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And she said to me, Oh yeah, I think there's some recordings in Um, and she goes, we've gotten some extra transcripts from the birthplaces and we Sagamore Hill.

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Um, and she said, but I think there's still audio recordings there.

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And I said, well, when I was there last, I said, I never saw them or heard them for that matter.

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And she goes, yeah, you know, they're kind of in a safe somewhere.

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And anyway, I talked to the national park.

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service staff about those recordings.

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And, um, there's no way to play them because they are on seven or eight inch magnetic reels.

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And.

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Those reels have been there since 1954 in most cases, maybe 1955 for a couple of others.

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they, they had on them approximately seven or eight hours of recordings with people like Alice Roosevelt Longworth, who, if you ever get to listen to her voice, Mm hmm.

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know, she sounds like Catherine Hepburn on speed.

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Heh heh heh.

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there's others too, there's other great family members like, um, William Sheffield Coles Jr.

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and his wife, Bobbie.

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Um, there are political acolytes of Theodore Roosevelt like, um, Stanley Isaacs, who was a New York City Councilman for a Mm hmm.

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of years.

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and then, these, these recordings, no one had listened to.

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Since probably the 1950s.

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And there's good reason for that.

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Um, a there's the, the format that they're in these magnetic reels, right? The national park service, when they take over the birthplace in 1963, it's around the time when they're getting rid of those kind of players and they moved to cassettes.

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So the technology just goes from magnetic reels to cassettes, to CDs onto now digital, right? So that means that they never had the players at the site to play the magnetic reels.

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And I went back and spoke to Rangers that were there since 1972 and none of them had ever heard the recordings.

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And to be sure Heh heh.

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Mm I talked to a lot of historians that would have been in the birthplace and use the archives.

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people like Kathleen Dalton, I talked to people that had worked with Edmund Morris, who has spent a lot of time at the birthplace.

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He never listened to these I talked to Stacey Cordray, who wrote the best biography on Alice Roosevelt Longworth.

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And she, she never listened to them either.

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So, I was pretty confident that no one had heard them before.

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And the contents of them are, um, in some cases, astonishing.

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Um, you know, we get some really intimate details about the Roosevelt family.

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hmm.

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Heh heh heh.

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politics in New York at the time.

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Um, Uh, and, and, you know, some, some quirky stuff too, like, you know, what, what food was on the menu at Sagamore Hill or what games did they play as kids, Yeah.

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they describe them? And you, you guys know, audio is such a richer, um, medium than writing.

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I mean, there's things that you can only convey in writing that you can't do in audio, but the voice to hear people's voices just brought everything alive for me.

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Well, your subtitle here of remembering Theodore Roosevelt is reminiscences of his contemporaries.

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So by, hmm.

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the 1950s, when Hagedorn and his daughter, Mary are conducting these, uh, oral history, interviews.

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you've already had the death of his wife, Edith.

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Uh, you've had already the death in the 1930s of his sisters, um, Bammy and Corrine.

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Uh, so who are the contemporaries here that, uh, that Hagedorn and his daughter are interviewing? So Alice Roosevelt Longworth is as close as it gets in terms of, uh, uh, you know, being TR's daughter, uh, but his nephew, William Sheffield Coles is a Mm hmm.

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uh, really great person to get interviewed because He doesn't just connect with Theodore Roosevelt, but obviously he's the Roosevelt's sister's son.

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That's Bamir, Anna Roosevelt Coles.

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And, um, but he connects also with Franklin Roosevelt as well, as does Alice Roosevelt Longworth and others.

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But, William Sheffield Coles talks a lot about how Franklin Roosevelt looked up to Theodore Roosevelt.

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And the stories that you get about this are, you know, he would have been, you An aid to Franklin Roosevelt when he was secretary of the Navy at the end of World War One, he even goes over to Versailles with Franklin Yeah.

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and you know, it's a, it's a proximity to power, I think, here with all of this.

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So, um, another example might be, Isaacs, who, uh, you know, is a.

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Is a political acolyte of, of TRs.

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And he goes on to have this great career.

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And he talks about the legacy that Roosevelt left him just by meeting him a couple of times.

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So there's like really close family friends or family members.

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Yeah.

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like, I wouldn't say it close, but like, you know, acquaintances, but from the same time period.

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And what you do get to see is the through line of ideology, political ideology from Theodore Roosevelt to.

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later generations because people like Isaacs, for example, he's in politics until the late 60s, early 70s.

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Yeah.

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so we have a long time span there.

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We also have, you know, varying different political issues and varying different, interpretations of, of, of TR, so there's, you know, there's some Yeah.

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say, oh, TR would have, um, would have wanted things to happen this way.

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Other people say he would have wanted them to happen another way.

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This, in a way, this.

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a, an addendum to the first book, Theodore Roosevelt's Ghost, Yeah.

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is straight from the horse's mouth.

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If Theodore Roosevelt's Ghost is a hundred years of memory and legacy, these are the people that actually knew him and are talking about him in the 1950s.

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So, I mean, it's, it's an important book to me in the sense that, uh, you get it from the horse's mouth here.

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Yeah.

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Mm hmm.

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people that actually knew T.

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R.

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and, and were talking about their time with him.

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Well, I know the impetus behind the recordings was Herman Hagadorn, and we mentioned in the previous podcast about his importance in preserving tr R's legacy.

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Where did he get the idea for the recordings? Mm-Hmm.

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I'd always wanted to collect oral histories.

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That was the first thing that he wanted to do, and actually it's something that I would encourage, you know, you guys are both educators.

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One of the ways that I got into history in the first instance was speaking to my grandfather about his experiences during World War II and the Great Depression.

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And I think there's a powerful connection between, and there's something that happens in you too, as a, as a questioner.

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I mean, you guys ask questions all the time as a podcaster and as a teacher.

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I don't know.

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Does everyone get that opportunity to ask people questions? Like what interests you? And Ah, yeah.

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Mm-Hmm? at that.

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And he was putting his own imprint on, on people.

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Now, as I said, he wanted to collect oral histories all the way back in 1919.

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When TR dies, he wants to do it in Long Island.

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the people in Long Island don't want to do it with him.

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So he goes out to the Badlands in 1919.

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And his inspiration for the book, TR and the Badlands, is From a bunch of oral histories that he did out in with friends of TR in 1919.

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And he never lost that spirit, that idea of interviewing people that knew TR.

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So when it came to the 1950s and the Centennial project, which was the Centennial of TR's birth, Yeah.

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had said, well, you know, I mean, I've collected everything, I'd still like to collect more histories.

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And so he starts talking to everyone that he possibly can about TR.

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And at this stage, I mean, many of them have died off.

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Many of TR's closest political allies and family members and friends.

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So Hagedorn realizes this is kind of the last gasp of TR's contemporaries.

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And he tries his very best to get as many as he can.

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And there are more, uh, that are not, you know, that are not just recorded.

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Uh, there, there are many more that are in transcripts in, in the Columbia Oral History Collection.

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but all of them are, are really, um, they're all included there because he, he recognized that oral history was important.

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And I should just say, a side note here, Oral history was becoming more and more important by the 1940s and 50s as well.

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The first, uh, major, really important center for oral history, uh, study was in Columbia University, and it was Alan Evans, famous American professor of history, and he and Hagedorn knew each other, and they had talked at one stage, and at one point, actually, I think Hagedorn had expected that oral histories would be much more extensive.

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So this is a professional practice as well.

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In fact, it's so professional that Hagedorn encourages his daughter to get an MA in the oral history program in Columbia as well.

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So this is something that was, um, the circumstances led to it, but also it's very much part of Hagedorn's love affair with oral.

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I used to actually, assign that, to my students as a weekend assignment.

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I said, go find somebody old and just talk to them, ask them some questions.

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Yeah, they're going to repeat themselves sometimes, but just astonishing.

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Um, you know, once you get them talking and, one of my favorite, uh, quotes.

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I can't recall who it was, but they said the past is a foreign country.

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They do things differently there.

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Yeah.

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So some of these, these interviews the Hagedorns were asking people to recall events, perhaps.

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30, 40, 50 years in the past, which is a, is an amazing thing to have to try to do.

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But the, the level of detail that some of these folks can still conjure up about TR.

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Could you, speak to, some of the revelations that come across about Theodore Roosevelt? Yeah, about TR there's, there's quite a few.

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I mean, one of my favorite, And this isn't in the recordings, but it's in one of the transcripts.

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It's from a North Dakotan, a guy called Jesse Langdon, who Mm-Hmm? last chapters in the book.

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And Jesse Langdon is a very colorful character.

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one of the things that you have to ask yourself when you're, when you're reading some of these or listening to them are they true? Uh, you know, these are, as you pointed out, people's memories and people's memories are flawed.

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I mean, eyewitness testimony in a court doesn't always hold up.

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So these stories seem like fisherman's tales and they just get longer and bigger, the fish, right? Um, Jesse Langdon was a Roughrider.

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That much we know is true.

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He says he was the first one, uh, the first Roughrider ever sworn in.

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Um, he says that because Roughriders weren't sworn in.

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So I guess in theory he was the first one sworn in and the last one sworn out because he actually was sworn out in a sense.

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So, um, but he's a real storyteller and he talks about his travels from North Dakota.

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to Washington, D.

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C.

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to enroll as a volunteer in the Rough Rider Regiment.

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And he actually stumbles upon Theodore Roosevelt and off the steps of the Navy War and State Building and, uh, and it's at that stage that he asks him to join and he does.

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But his, his travels from North Dakota to Washington are incredible.

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his travels then with Theodore Roosevelt to San Antonio and Tampa Cuba are, are equally fascinating and they really are an insider's history of the Rough Riders.

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The problem is too with memory is that he's forged those memories and those stories, some of which are just, you know, brilliant, but he's forged them with a bunch of other guys who've been retelling those stories Yeah.

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Rider reunions over 40 years Yep.

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you know, those fishermen's tales, they, you know They, they sort of, it's like a collective memory in a Mm-Hmm? Um, anyway, I, I still think they're worthy.

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They're worthy to, to, to, to listen to and to, to read.

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I think we need to take everything with a sort of and Yeah.

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that we're, we're aware that some of them might be exaggerated.

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Um, now that said, there's other stories in there about Theodore Roosevelt and his politics, like for example, who he wanted to succeed him.

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Yeah.

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So William Chadbourne, one of the, uh, the people in the book was a Republican party leader in New York said that it was Elihu Root.

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And I think that's confirmed by a bunch of other historians as well.

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But he talks about how much he, he wanted Elihu Root to be the next president.

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But that L.

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A.

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root was so and, uh, icy that he would have never been elected and he was, he was an introvert and he was a lawyer and he, you Yep.

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he wasn't a charismatic political leader of men.

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Mm-Hmm.

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settles on Taft, but there's some other great stories in there as well about T.

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R.

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and meeting college students, which is something T.

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R.

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loved to do, but there's some intimate stories about what happened in, uh, In colleges when, you know, T.

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R.

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would meet students, he would say that no one's allowed to talk about what they're going to discuss.

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And he, he just thought the world of college students, you know, people going off and getting a liberal arts education made them thinkers and able to, you know, parse life's biggest problems.

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And he, he talks to a number of college students in one of these interviews with a former, Harvard man.

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And, um, And, you know, he really just thought the world of college students.

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Another, another really good one is, uh, meets someone who's a Democrat and, uh, he, someone says, oh, this, this guy's from Tammany hall.

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And Roosevelt says, don't, don't take him down a peg or two.

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Cause he's a Democrat.

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You know, what's important is that he's got belief in his convictions and that kind of shuts up the other guy.

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Who's kind of trying to put him down for being a Democrat.

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It just, there's little glimpses at Theodore Roosevelt's personality in all of these stories that give you a much better sense of the man than some of our more traditional biographies, I think.

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Yep.

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Yeah, that's the really interesting thing.

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Well, it's, it's the real value of this book is that it adds more layers to TR's character to, glimpses into his personality, uh, that you, you mentioned the good government clubs of college students that came to the white house and the recollection of that conversation.

179
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And, and yeah, that, that.

180
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Kid was so, um, was so moved that, that TR didn't dismiss him, uh, as, as a Democrat, that, that he said, no, it's, it's just important that you, that you stand for your convictions, that you get involved in civic life in America and, yeah, and same with with Jesse Langdon, you know, the rough rider, it was 70 some years later that he still recalled conversations, he said with Roosevelt that I mean, he talks about how Roosevelt was such a good listener that he listened to the common man.

181
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He had that common touch with people.

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Um, and you know, that, those are just tremendous.

183
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Those of us who love Theodore Roosevelt, that's, these are just amazing little morsels that, that give a little bit more insight into his, his character and personality.

184
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And that, that's priceless.

185
00:16:14,390.1015 --> 00:16:16,660.1005
So thank you so much for digging that out.

186
00:16:16,939.1015 --> 00:16:17,459.1015
Yes.

187
00:16:18,9.1015 --> 00:16:27,479.1005
You can read the interviews in your book, and you've mentioned in other podcasts and places that the recordings themselves are available to be listened to.

188
00:16:27,509.1005 --> 00:16:29,149.1005
So you can hear Alice's voice.

189
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You can catch the intonations.

190
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Where can we find those recordings? Hmm.

191
00:16:38,851.1015 --> 00:16:46,601.1015
was that we weren't sure if we were going to be able to digitize These magnetic reels, but the National Park Service was really great.

192
00:16:46,651.1015 --> 00:16:51,311.1015
And they basically, I said to them, I'll pay for the digitization.

193
00:16:51,621.1015 --> 00:16:58,1.1015
If you can, if you can help me get it to a New York city, uh, there's a, there's a great place called data works in New York city that digitize these.

194
00:16:58,401.1015 --> 00:17:00,141.1005
And one of the park Rangers.

195
00:17:01,131.1015 --> 00:17:06,201.1015
walked over the assets, these, these magnetic reels, then got them digitized.

196
00:17:06,201.1015 --> 00:17:09,191.1015
And, national park service said, you own them now, Mike.

197
00:17:09,571.1015 --> 00:17:11,791.101
And I was like, well, you know, I don't want to own them.

198
00:17:11,791.101 --> 00:17:13,861.1015
I mean, these, I want everyone to listen to these.

199
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So.

200
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You can reach out to the Park Service.

201
00:17:16,71.1015 --> 00:17:36,321.1015
I've made them public domain now, so you can listen to them, reach out to the birthplace, the Manhattan sites of the National Park Service, and uh, the curator there will be able to put you in the right direction, or if you can't find it that way, You can always email me and I'll, you know, I'll, I don't have any links online to them, but I have all the recordings and they're, they're free to use.

202
00:17:36,331.1015 --> 00:17:46,841.1015
So, yeah, I mean, I think if you are intrepid and you, you do want to hear more of TR, if you certainly, a lot of people want to hear Alice Roosevelt Longworth because, you know, she's got such a unique place in American history.

203
00:17:47,251.1015 --> 00:17:49,431.1015
Um, yeah, you, you know, go and listen to them.

204
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There's hours and hours there.

205
00:17:51,340.1005 --> 00:17:56,870.1015
Several of these, interviewees, speak to, uh, Roosevelt's memory.

206
00:17:56,920.2015 --> 00:18:14,470.3025
could you give an example of, uh, I think it was the, uh, when he had just welcomed back the great white fleet, and he's, he's on board the, the gunship of, of the admiral and, and he spots somebody out upon one of the gun turrets.

207
00:18:14,470.3025 --> 00:18:19,980.3025
Could you speak to that?, That's one of the big things that comes out of the book is that Theodore Roosevelt's memory was incredible.

208
00:18:19,980.3025 --> 00:18:23,70.3025
I mean, photographic is almost like an understatement.

209
00:18:23,70.3025 --> 00:18:23,480.3025
Okay.

210
00:18:23,540.3025 --> 00:18:31,630.3015
So, um, this, the great white fleet coming home is a crowning achievement to TR's presidency.

211
00:18:32,18.3025 --> 00:18:32,468.3025
Hmm.

212
00:18:32,500.3025 --> 00:18:34,950.3025
a huge amount of pomp and circumstance with this.

213
00:18:34,950.3025 --> 00:18:42,798.3025
So one of the, the admirals, the, the flagship is 700 sailors on it, you know, of all Yep.

214
00:18:42,798.3025 --> 00:18:43,748.2025
Yep.

215
00:18:43,855.3025 --> 00:18:46,455.3025
is there to welcome them back and to, to greet the ship.

216
00:18:46,455.3025 --> 00:19:00,465.3015
And he's on the deck of the ship and he spots someone up in the gun turret, you know, one of the 700 sailors there and asks, uh, you know, asks to come down, you know, and basically says, I know you and you're so and so.

217
00:19:00,465.3015 --> 00:19:05,455.3025
And I wanted to thank you for the loving cup that you had presented, uh, you know, at one stage and.

218
00:19:05,830.3025 --> 00:19:17,270.3015
The sailor is just gobsmacked, you know, how, how could you possibly remember me, let alone pick me out in a crowd of all sailors in largely the same uniforms? And this isn't the only occasion either.

219
00:19:17,270.3015 --> 00:19:32,835.3015
There's another time when TR is driving through New York, um, uh, I can't remember the circumstances of the trip, but he's driving through New York and he's basically being chauffeured from A to B and he often had police escorts for, for that, because obviously he had been nearly assassinated once before.

220
00:19:33,205.3015 --> 00:19:48,930.3025
Um, and one of the escorts there is a man that he had promoted from all the way back when he was police commissioner in New York and now it's post presidency and he turns to the guy and he says, so and so, how come you didn't say hello to me? And he says, well, I'm sorry, sir.

221
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I didn't think you would, you would notice me.

222
00:19:50,370.3025 --> 00:19:52,848.3025
And he says, well, didn't I make you a Sergeant? Yep.

223
00:19:52,848.4025 --> 00:19:55,278.2025
Yep.

224
00:19:55,510.3025 --> 00:20:23,155.3025
for not, you know, but I mean, these are, these are wonderful stories that I think speak to the humanity of Roosevelt, Yeah, mean, so obviously I, I think Roosevelt's a great leader, right? On many levels, but being able to, uh, Have a photographic memory and then to, to speak to people with a, with an empathy and compassion from their perspective and to try and relate to them is something that he seems to do throughout his career.

225
00:20:23,165.3025 --> 00:20:29,625.3025
And what these stories in the book explain is that he's able to do that because he, his memory is just so darn good.

226
00:20:29,985.3025 --> 00:20:32,915.3025
You know, he can pull things from books that he read ages ago.

227
00:20:32,915.3025 --> 00:20:35,85.3025
So someone that he might be speaking with.

228
00:20:35,790.3025 --> 00:20:45,960.3025
know, is aware that he's this very busy man, leader of men has also read this book and is engaging with them yeah, that they're also fond of.

229
00:20:45,990.3025 --> 00:20:52,340.3035
So, I mean, the whole book is riddled with stories like that, but, uh, for me, it's, it's one of those things that makes him a very human character.

230
00:20:53,120.3015 --> 00:20:54,788.3025
superhuman actually is the right yeah.

231
00:20:54,880.3025 --> 00:20:57,670.3025
I mean, no one, no one really has a memory like that, that I know.

232
00:20:57,999.3015 --> 00:20:58,349.3015
Right.

233
00:20:59,38.3025 --> 00:21:06,248.3025
Well, two to three books a day and then being able to cite page numbers years later and answer the questions is pretty amazing.

234
00:21:06,958.3025 --> 00:21:14,58.302
And one of the things I love with your book you just mentioned is how when you read the interviews, it gives T.

235
00:21:14,58.302 --> 00:21:14,338.3015
R.

236
00:21:14,348.3025 --> 00:21:15,328.3025
flesh and blood.

237
00:21:15,458.3025 --> 00:21:16,638.3025
It's the real T.

238
00:21:16,638.3025 --> 00:21:16,958.3025
R.,

239
00:21:17,18.3025 --> 00:21:18,148.3025
the people that met him.

240
00:21:18,148.3025 --> 00:21:21,488.2525
Not just rose colored glasses through a biographer.

241
00:21:21,488.2525 --> 00:21:27,678.3025
You know, you get Jacob Reese others who write about him, but you get those who were right there and knew him.

242
00:21:27,678.4025 --> 00:21:27,743.2025
Yeah.

243
00:21:29,543.3025 --> 00:21:33,173.3025
There was one interview that I wish was longer.

244
00:21:33,283.3025 --> 00:21:35,83.3025
I wish it would have went on and on.

245
00:21:35,103.3025 --> 00:21:42,233.3025
And that is, uh, uh, Barkley Farr, who was a, a classmate of, of Kermit's at Groton.

246
00:21:42,393.3025 --> 00:21:54,723.3015
And, uh, He went, you entitled this, you take it actually from something that TR had, had said, heh to the kid's mom But it's called the worst friend of the worst boy in the world.

247
00:21:55,953.3025 --> 00:22:04,813.3025
So, um, he had this unique, uh, opportunity to see Roosevelt as a relaxed family man at Sagamore Hill.

248
00:22:04,823.3025 --> 00:22:05,63.3025
Okay.

249
00:22:05,303.3025 --> 00:22:11,563.3025
Do you remember a couple of stories that particularly like 4th of July stories, that he recollects? Yeah.

250
00:22:11,563.3025 --> 00:22:14,233.3025
I mean, that one is actually probably my favorite.

251
00:22:14,233.3025 --> 00:22:16,193.3025
I mean, Barkley Farr.

252
00:22:16,193.3025 --> 00:22:20,596.6025
So Barkley Farr, actually, there's two stories from the same family members in there.

253
00:22:20,596.6025 --> 00:22:26,303.3025
So Barkley Farr and his wife, Georgina Farr Sibley, is also featured in there as well.

254
00:22:26,501.3025 --> 00:22:26,631.3025
hmm.

255
00:22:26,913.3025 --> 00:22:30,503.3025
they were family friends through, um, Ethel Roosevelt.

256
00:22:31,3.3025 --> 00:22:38,203.3025
Darby and through Kermit Roosevelt, and they actually lived next door to Kareem Roosevelt Robinson, who was TR's sister.

257
00:22:39,373.3025 --> 00:22:40,583.3025
There's a couple of stories.

258
00:22:40,673.3025 --> 00:22:47,871.3025
My favorite one, and I'll tell the 4th of July story too, but my favorite one is when Barkley Farr plays tennis with Theodore Roosevelt at Mm hmm.

259
00:22:48,911.3025 --> 00:22:49,581.2025
Heh heh.

260
00:22:49,723.3025 --> 00:22:54,573.3025
Sagamore Hill and Theodore Roosevelt, man, he did not play tennis like.

261
00:22:54,898.3025 --> 00:22:57,598.3025
Pete Sampras or Novak Djokovic.

262
00:22:57,638.3025 --> 00:22:58,501.3025
I mean, No.

263
00:22:58,501.4025 --> 00:23:01,81.2025
Heh heh heh heh heh.

264
00:23:01,298.3025 --> 00:23:10,128.3025
Farr, when he gets to play tennis with him, he's because TR is president at that stage and he thinks to himself, okay, I'm playing doubles with this guy.

265
00:23:10,138.3025 --> 00:23:10,368.3025
And.

266
00:23:11,258.3025 --> 00:23:14,118.3025
on his team and he serves and he nearly hits TR.

267
00:23:14,118.3025 --> 00:23:19,248.3025
He thinks, Oh God, I'm going to, going to hit the president with a tennis ball, you know, hard probably.

268
00:23:19,288.3025 --> 00:23:21,678.302
And, uh, TR loves this.

269
00:23:21,921.3025 --> 00:23:22,221.3025
Yeah.

270
00:23:22,378.3025 --> 00:23:25,878.3015
so elated with the game and the play and the banter.

271
00:23:26,958.3025 --> 00:23:32,311.3025
and it is kind of, in a way it gives you a sense of TR's, um, It's a kind of view on life, you know, Yeah.

272
00:23:32,863.3025 --> 00:23:34,503.3025
it's, it's all a bit of a laugh.

273
00:23:34,543.3025 --> 00:23:39,213.3015
I mean, it's serious too, but I mean, when you're out to play, it's out for fun and, and nothing more.

274
00:23:39,503.3025 --> 00:23:43,243.3025
But he, he also, um, the thing that I really love about TR is a father.

275
00:23:43,243.3025 --> 00:23:44,463.3025
I'm a father of two boys.

276
00:23:45,213.3015 --> 00:23:47,701.3025
I think I've learned a lot from this book in terms Mm hmm.

277
00:23:47,753.302 --> 00:23:49,963.3025
father, because his kids get into lots of trouble.

278
00:23:49,963.4025 --> 00:23:51,351.3025
Like if you, if Oh, yeah.

279
00:23:51,353.3025 --> 00:23:55,141.3015
the Roosevelt family didn't get into trouble, I mean, come on, every Mm hmm.

280
00:23:55,313.3025 --> 00:23:57,373.3025
every kid does something stupid at some stage.

281
00:23:57,373.3025 --> 00:23:57,603.3025
And.

282
00:23:58,78.3025 --> 00:24:31,921.2025
And TR's kids, Kermit Roosevelt and Barclay Farr, on the 4th of July, they go out to stir up some trouble, and they're, they're gonna go torment a neighbor with fireworks, and so they go over there, and it's kind of raining out, and they've got some sort of explosive of some kind, you know, I don't know what kind of M80s there were back in the day, but they go out and they're gonna, they're gonna light some fireworks off on this guy's porch, and they, They start doing that and the guy pulls a gun on 'em and they've gotta run and they tumble down, you know, um, tumble down, uh, banks and they, they have to make their way back, you know, a couple miles to Sagamore Heh heh.

283
00:24:32,658.3025 --> 00:24:37,221.3025
the guy, of course, his door when the fireworks went off, the door burned Yeah.

284
00:24:37,238.3025 --> 00:24:37,593.3025
then.

285
00:24:39,163.3025 --> 00:24:40,493.3025
The guy, the neighbor goes over to T.

286
00:24:40,493.3025 --> 00:24:40,603.3025
R.

287
00:24:40,603.3025 --> 00:24:43,183.3025
's house and says, look, your kids burned my door.

288
00:24:43,573.3025 --> 00:24:45,583.3025
And the kids are, you know, they're in trouble, but T.

289
00:24:45,583.3025 --> 00:24:45,723.3025
R.

290
00:24:45,723.3025 --> 00:24:46,833.3025
never yells at them.

291
00:24:47,253.3015 --> 00:24:48,361.3025
I mean, No.

292
00:24:49,153.3025 --> 00:24:51,823.3025
I mean, I yell at my kids for far less than that.

293
00:24:52,407.3025 --> 00:24:52,467.3025
Perfect.

294
00:24:52,611.3025 --> 00:24:53,1.3025
Yeah.

295
00:24:53,183.3015 --> 00:24:57,173.3015
and there's other stories that Barclay Barr and others have in the White House where it's the same, you know, T.

296
00:24:57,173.3015 --> 00:24:57,453.3015
R.

297
00:24:57,883.3025 --> 00:25:09,623.3015
is laughing at them, boys being boys and girls being girls in other cases too, but it's just, he takes it in his stride, which is, um, remarkably, um, yeah, remarkably chilled out, I guess, as a dad.

298
00:25:09,638.4025 --> 00:25:14,747.3025
Yeah, remarks about how Roosevelt never scolded them.

299
00:25:15,197.3025 --> 00:25:19,907.3025
Um, I think he does say he may have spoken to Kermit later.

300
00:25:19,907.4025 --> 00:25:29,991.3025
Uh, I White House he spoke to the boys with the White House gang at times, but nothing, you don't ever hear him, like you said, yelling at them.

301
00:25:30,101.3025 --> 00:25:40,697.2025
I can't recall which interviewee it was, but they talked about Roosevelt with family life at Sagamore.

302
00:25:41,7.3025 --> 00:25:55,167.3015
Fairly well known that he couldn't carry a tune, and yet he would use this as a form of, uh, getting people to laugh and entertainment, uh, that he would sing opera at, at home for amusement of others.

303
00:25:56,158.3025 --> 00:25:58,858.3025
there's, um, I think the home life stuff is fascinating.

304
00:25:58,888.3025 --> 00:26:02,978.3025
The singing, the charades, you know, charades and the messing around the house.

305
00:26:03,18.3015 --> 00:26:09,228.3025
The, also the way that Edith kind of was, Edith was a very different character to TR.

306
00:26:09,228.4025 --> 00:26:11,508.3015
So TR was, rather jovial.

307
00:26:12,638.3025 --> 00:26:16,501.3025
I wouldn't say it was stern, maybe borderline stern, but she was serious, Mhm.

308
00:26:16,948.3025 --> 00:26:23,638.3025
Um, I think naturally they were, they were very much in love with each other, but she also told him things that he didn't want to hear sometimes.

309
00:26:23,648.3025 --> 00:26:51,468.3025
Like there's an episode in one of the recordings where, um, someone's describing TR, carving a roast dinner on Sunday and getting gravy all over his shirt and Edith says something along the lines of you're gonna have to go change your shirt now because we have the Senators coming over later and he says, well, the Senator can just deal with this I've got gravy on my shirt, you know and You know, those kind of family moments, those intimate moments and the kind of trivial ones to the ones that we think don't matter.

310
00:26:51,948.3025 --> 00:26:56,468.3025
I mean, they are, they are, they speak to the person in the character and their Yeah, too.

311
00:26:56,468.3025 --> 00:27:04,458.3025
And, and those relationships are, I mean, TR with his family is a, is a love that is, um, it's really remarkable.

312
00:27:04,458.3025 --> 00:27:08,701.3025
I know Ed O'Keefe has yeah, out about the loves of TR's life, you yes.

313
00:27:08,933.3025 --> 00:27:14,683.3025
And it's mainly the women, but I think that family love is really comes through in these testimonials as well.

314
00:27:14,973.3025 --> 00:27:18,63.3025
The accounts of how the Roosevelt family got along.

315
00:27:18,321.3025 --> 00:27:21,583.3025
Yeah, something in there beyond just the immediate family.

316
00:27:21,793.3025 --> 00:27:25,603.3025
In every one of those interviews, the Roosevelt family uses the word devotion.

317
00:27:26,53.3015 --> 00:27:27,813.3035
They were devoted to each other.

318
00:27:28,113.3025 --> 00:27:34,303.3025
And that's a lovely way to think about family love and, you know, the, the shared experiences that we have as families..

319
00:27:35,777.3025 --> 00:27:41,887.3025
One of the things I really love about your book is it stresses the importance of the Roosevelt women.

320
00:27:43,172.3025 --> 00:27:52,252.3025
you know, puts Ethel in there, which she gets overlooked a lot because of Alice's and the other Washington Monument stature.

321
00:27:52,712.3025 --> 00:27:59,482.3025
And got, you know, all the different people there that, the ladies, it gives a good perspective.

322
00:27:59,532.3025 --> 00:28:01,82.3025
It's like, if you want to understand T.

323
00:28:01,82.3025 --> 00:28:01,222.3025
R.

324
00:28:01,222.3025 --> 00:28:05,112.3025
more, look at the women in his life.

325
00:28:05,582.3025 --> 00:28:13,62.302
It's what my wife Julia has talked about when she portrays Edith reading the biographies of T.

326
00:28:13,62.302 --> 00:28:13,332.3015
R.,

327
00:28:13,682.3015 --> 00:28:15,532.3025
but then reading Sylvia Jukes Morris.

328
00:28:15,892.3025 --> 00:28:19,512.3025
And you get such a different view and perspective of T.

329
00:28:19,512.3025 --> 00:28:19,782.3025
R.

330
00:28:19,792.3025 --> 00:28:22,24.365
So, Absolutely.

331
00:28:23,838.3025 --> 00:28:31,738.3025
We recently had the opportunity to, um, have an interview with Ed O'Keefe talking about the upcoming book, Loves of Theodore Roosevelt.

332
00:28:31,798.3025 --> 00:28:35,292.3035
And he does use your book, uh, yes.

333
00:28:35,798.3025 --> 00:28:40,328.3025
uh, the reminiscences of, people are in the orbit of, of Theodore Roosevelt.

334
00:28:40,538.3025 --> 00:28:45,378.3025
And, uh, that's something else that touches, the women of Roosevelt's life in this book.

335
00:28:45,438.3025 --> 00:28:48,838.3025
a bit of folks comment on his sisters.

336
00:28:49,528.3025 --> 00:28:54,748.3025
so we, hear quite a lot about the character of, of his sister Bambi and also Corrine.

337
00:28:54,928.3025 --> 00:28:59,248.3035
Corinne and Bammy are, uh, and this is another thing just about the names just quickly.

338
00:28:59,278.3025 --> 00:29:02,808.3035
And this is completely aside, but I always thought it was pronounced Corinne.

339
00:29:02,936.241 --> 00:29:03,256.241
Mm hmm.

340
00:29:03,658.3035 --> 00:29:06,948.3035
but actually what you hear on the recordings is how they actually pronounce their names.

341
00:29:06,958.3035 --> 00:29:07,318.2035
So it's kind of weird.

342
00:29:07,588.3035 --> 00:29:08,588.3035
Pronounce Kareen.

343
00:29:08,666.241 --> 00:29:09,126.241
Mm hmm.

344
00:29:09,778.3035 --> 00:29:16,98.3025
and, uh, and anyway, Kareen and Bami are incredibly important forces and they're very different women as well.

345
00:29:16,498.3035 --> 00:29:24,858.3035
Alice Roosevelt says in the recordings that if Bami, the oldest sister, If she hadn't been a woman, she would have been president of the United States.

346
00:29:24,898.3035 --> 00:29:26,478.3035
Not her, not, not Theodore.

347
00:29:26,888.3035 --> 00:29:33,366.241
Um, so she had this very powerful vision for the family, strong convictions, Yeah.

348
00:29:33,366.341 --> 00:29:35,616.14
Mm hmm.

349
00:29:35,688.3035 --> 00:29:37,318.3025
spirit and charisma as well.

350
00:29:37,918.3025 --> 00:29:40,978.3035
Corrine, on the other hand, is much more sensitive.

351
00:29:41,3.4035 --> 00:29:54,443.3035
Um, I suppose, um, tender as well, you know, some, someone called her in the recordings, uh, sickeningly sweet that she's so, so pleasant, but she wasn't this kind of like, you know, charismatic leader.

352
00:29:54,443.3035 --> 00:29:58,653.3025
And both of those two personalities certainly filter into TR as well.

353
00:29:58,653.3025 --> 00:29:59,576.24
I mean, you Yeah.

354
00:30:00,38.3035 --> 00:30:10,528.3035
these women are his champions throughout his life, you know, always kind of, always feeling fulfilled when they're with him, when they're, when they're talking for him or, or vying for him.

355
00:30:10,588.3035 --> 00:30:12,408.3025
So they're incredibly important.

356
00:30:12,608.3025 --> 00:30:23,928.3035
Bammy is just such a character in this book because her son, William Sheffield Coles, her only son, uh, speaks quite a bit about her and about her life and what dinner parties were like with her.

357
00:30:23,948.3035 --> 00:30:25,578.3035
She was very hard of hearing.

358
00:30:25,873.3035 --> 00:30:31,146.241
And yet the whole room kind of revolved around this cadence that she kept Yep.

359
00:30:31,163.3035 --> 00:30:38,853.3035
uh, you know, telling, telling wonderful stories, bringing people together then at the end of the meal and how that all worked.

360
00:30:38,853.3035 --> 00:30:39,636.241
And, you Yeah.

361
00:30:39,823.3035 --> 00:30:49,913.3035
about her last day, uh, alive and she was still bringing people into the house to have tea because it was like part of the ritual, even though she could barely dress herself, she didn't dress herself.

362
00:30:49,953.3035 --> 00:30:53,753.3035
Someone was dressing her and, you know, but these women are just incredible.

363
00:30:54,198.3035 --> 00:30:59,38.3035
Characters in their own right, and Ed's book does a wonderful job of bringing that out.

364
00:30:59,158.3035 --> 00:31:04,396.241
What, what I like best about Ed's book as well is about, His mother and his treatment of Yeah.

365
00:31:04,413.3035 --> 00:31:16,483.3035
Bullock, uh, who in so many books is reduced to like a Victorian caricature of a over civilized woman, you know, someone who doesn't really, um, take a leading role in her family.

366
00:31:16,483.3035 --> 00:31:20,803.303
And Ed's book puts that absolutely right and makes Middy a major character.

367
00:31:20,803.303 --> 00:31:27,336.241
And there are, there are some, uh, chapters in the book, my book that talk about Middy and her family and the women who, you know, Mm hmm.

368
00:31:27,618.3035 --> 00:31:30,36.241
like the Gracie family, you know, the Yeah.

369
00:31:30,448.3035 --> 00:31:40,958.3025
sisters that are just, um, you know, they're so important to the development of TR, but also everyone else in the family owes a major debt of gratitude to all of the women.

370
00:31:42,146.241 --> 00:31:54,888.3035
When you were listening to the tapes and transcribing, doing all the work, how did it transform your understanding of TR? That's a great question.

371
00:31:54,928.3035 --> 00:31:56,68.3035
Oh, wow.

372
00:31:56,178.3035 --> 00:31:56,728.3035
I don't know.

373
00:31:56,728.3035 --> 00:32:03,378.3035
Did that much change in terms of my impression? Because I feel like I've been living with TR for a long time now.

374
00:32:03,378.3035 --> 00:32:05,938.3035
I'm actually I'm like, I need a break from TR.

375
00:32:05,938.3035 --> 00:32:08,368.303
I know my wife definitely wants a break from TR.

376
00:32:08,368.303 --> 00:32:12,288.3025
If she has to hear me talk about TR anymore, she's gonna freak out.

377
00:32:12,288.3025 --> 00:32:16,658.3035
But, don't think my overall impression has changed terribly.

378
00:32:16,798.3035 --> 00:32:21,171.241
what I do like are the stories that, that bring out his human side and it's Mm hmm.

379
00:32:21,338.3035 --> 00:32:29,998.2035
like the day to day stuff that I, you probably don't think of when you read biographies of TR, you know, you're going to get like the anthracite coal strike and world war one and.

380
00:32:30,178.3035 --> 00:32:33,558.3035
Everything's really heavy and big and demanding of your attention.

381
00:32:33,928.3035 --> 00:32:38,428.3035
But like what they ate at Sagamore Hill, kind of cool.

382
00:32:38,428.3035 --> 00:32:47,188.3035
And that I'm, you know, I'm really interested in all that, not to write a book about it necessarily, but just to get a better sense of what was going on in the periphery of TR's life.

383
00:32:47,188.3035 --> 00:32:47,771.24
And I Yeah.

384
00:32:47,978.303 --> 00:32:50,53.2035
out of the book, a little bit more of the periphery.

385
00:32:51,32.241 --> 00:33:02,392.24
Well, we know that you need to be going on to your next pursuit, Uh, Michael, we were going to ask you, one more question here I understand you are working on, uh, one more.

386
00:33:02,837.241 --> 00:33:07,37.241
Theodore Roosevelt project, perhaps before you move on to other fields.

387
00:33:07,37.241 --> 00:33:15,807.241
So could you just mention what you're working on currently? So this one is about Theodore Roosevelt and the sort of unsung heroes of his administration.

388
00:33:15,847.241 --> 00:33:17,897.241
So Mm that TR played tennis.

389
00:33:17,947.241 --> 00:33:19,207.241
It was his favorite sport.

390
00:33:19,467.24 --> 00:33:22,137.24
He had a tennis court outside of the president's office.

391
00:33:22,377.241 --> 00:33:48,845.1785
Um, this is the original West wing was built by TR and his wife put in a tennis court so that he would get exercise on that tennis court kind of court is a Double entendre here in the sense that it was a court in the tennis sense, but it was also a court where, you know, the big ideas of the administration were thrashed out and the 30 or so members of that court were really important figures that have been almost completely overlooked hmm.

392
00:33:48,905.1785 --> 00:33:51,125.0785
Mm hmm.

393
00:33:51,527.241 --> 00:33:53,937.241
vacuum that sucks all of the air out of the room.

394
00:33:55,662.241 --> 00:33:59,262.241
you know, he could have never gotten the things done without some of these, these guys.

395
00:33:59,372.241 --> 00:34:04,822.241
And, um, so I wanted to elevate their status a little bit while also telling the story of TR's presidency.

396
00:34:05,112.241 --> 00:34:24,262.241
And so the book is about, uh, the presidency from their perspective, but what you'll get from the book is a sense of all the achievements of the White House years, which I think, uh, Actually, we spend a lot of time talking about TR and adventure and and action, but actually TR and politics is something that we, we could dwell a little bit on more, especially for our own time.

397
00:34:24,262.241 --> 00:34:31,632.24
I think he got a lot done as president and for me, how he got that done is almost as important as what he got done.

398
00:34:32,975.1775 --> 00:34:37,675.176
We'll look forward to that next, layer of, remembering legacy, of Theodore Roosevelt.

399
00:34:37,915.176 --> 00:34:43,135.176
So, uh, Michael Patrick Cullinane, thank you so much for sharing your time here.

400
00:34:43,135.176 --> 00:34:46,35.176
We really appreciate, this opportunity to talk to you.

401
00:34:46,35.176 --> 00:34:47,705.176
Larry, Kurt, thanks so much.

402
00:34:47,745.176 --> 00:34:52,45.176
I cannot wait to see you guys in Indiana and we will talk more about Roosevelt, I'm sure.