Episode 14 - The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt (part 1) with Edward O'Keefe

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You have written this very unique biography on Theodore Roosevelt from the perspective of the influence that the women in his life had upon him.

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Uh, you're currently CEO of the TR Presidential Library Foundation, and before that worked in the, in journalism for a couple of decades.

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Uh, so, how do you come to be interested in Theodore Roosevelt, you know, what's your, your TR story, and, and then in particular, what, uh, what caused you to be interested in the, the, the role of women in his life? Well, Kurt, I, I, I say in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, um, that when you're born in North Dakota, you get your birth certificate.

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then your choice of idols, Peggy Lee, Lawrence Welk, Roger Maris, or Theodore Roosevelt.

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So I chose T.

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R.

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or perhaps T.

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R.

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chose me, uh, you know, you, you all have spent some time in Medora, North Dakota, uh, what I consider to be one of the most beautiful places in the world, the Badlands, where Theodore Roosevelt spent those formative years, uh, as a rancher and a cowboy.

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I traveled through Medora practically every summer with my family.

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We would go to the Medora musical.

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Uh, we would spend time at Theater Roosevelt National Park.

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And I, you know, I just, I, I was a Red River Rough Rider.

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High school Rough Riders were my school mascot and I always wanted to, read everything and watched everything that I could about Theodore Roosevelt, but I never had the time given the 20 years I spent in media that you, you mentioned Kurt.

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to really dig deep and do some research, um, and learn on my own about TR.

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And I've always been fascinated by the women in his life.

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I've, I've, you know, heard legend of BAMI in particular.

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Obviously I knew a bit more about Edith because she was first lady.

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And I, so I, I wanted to know more about them, but I really, I started my research thinking that I would write a hopefully definitive account of Theodore Roosevelt's time in the Badlands, how nature was his healing tonic, and how as he said, he would never would've been president.

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But for his experiences in North Dakota, I, I felt as a North Dakotan and somebody involved in building the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in.

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Western North Dakota that that was a perspective, um, that that could use more attention as I started the research, though, I just kept bumping into the women.

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I mean, these extraordinary, um.

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Women in his life who are a part of every single major decision that he makes both personal and political, and respect the canon.

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I love the canon of work on TR, the rise of Theodore Roosevelt was like a Bible to me, you know, I read it so many times the pages are ripped and torn and dog eared and underlined and penciled and, but, you know, there are takes on MIDI and Alice and, you know, Uh, in particular, that as I got to know them through the original research and the letters, I thought, wow, this is, these, these are, these are very different people than what I thought I knew from what has been written about them.

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And, um, all of a sudden a new idea emerged, you know, the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, the women who created a president that this.

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Hyper masculine, um, man who is probably, you know, probably the most masculine president in the American memory is actually the product of these extraordinary women.

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And, and, you know, he's, he's always, TR is that person that is supposedly self made and I love that image of Theodore Roosevelt.

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I admire that image of Theodore Roosevelt, the resilience and strenuous life that he lived.

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But it actually makes me admire him.

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More knowing that he had and needed help at many and various points in his life.

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And, and so that's, that's how I came to, to write the loves of Theodore Roosevelt.

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Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a great story.

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I mean, those of us who are blessed to have supportive women in our lives, uh, you know, that's a, that's a great perspective to, to look at this man that, like you said, the mythology is built up that, that he's self made, or we hear so much about his father, Thee, being the greatest man he ever knew and such an influence, and yet, You've almost turned that, uh, North Dakota slogan on its head and said, Were it not for the women in my life, I would never have been President of the United States.

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I think that's very true, Kurt.

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I think that's exactly right.

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And it's not to detract from Theodore Roosevelt's accomplishments.

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It's not to say that, you know, Thie wasn't a great man.

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He was.

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Thie was an extraordinary example.

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But I think in certain characters up, we've at times diminished the importance of others.

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And, you know, I think of history as, as storytelling, right? That each successive generation is telling a little bit different version of the story that they've heard before.

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And I've heard throughout my life that Theodore Roosevelt is the product of his own will, that he is almost supernatural in his Ability to persevere.

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And I thought, wow, that's, that's an example I want to live up to and a credo that I want to embrace.

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As you go through life, you struggle, right? There, there are hurts and pains and death and challenge and sickness and, uh, you know, you need your brothers, your mother, your father, your sisters, your colleagues, your friends, your spouse help you through those moments.

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And even, um, the great ones like Theodore Roosevelt had help.

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Um, and I, I just thought it was appropriate in time to take a look at those people in his life that, that made him possible.

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You write that Midi was in many ways the source of TR's greatest strength, his resilience.

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Can you explain that? Mm hmm.

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Heheheheh.

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Mm hmm.

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love many.

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I think I think David McCullough might take a bit more charitable view of Nitty than Edmund Morris.

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Um, I really looked to mornings on horseback and I saw these glimmers of personality and, um, liveliness.

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Uh, they actually, brother says when he marries Middy, between your solemnity and her liveliness, you make an even pair.

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I guess it's a 19th century way of saying opposites attract.

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Right.

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And, and you can imagine, right, Thie is, Is, uh, uh, solemn and serious and, um, very dutiful.

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And Middy is this southern belle with incredible wit and personality.

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Um, her brother will say of Middy that she is a, uh, a bright eyed, lively lass with a ready tongue.

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I mean, if you just took that quote You can apply it to Theodore Roosevelt.

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And I think indeed, T.

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R.

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Mm is much more Middy's than his father's.

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I mean, he, you know, he, he admires and loves his father, but if he takes after one of his parents more than the other, you'd have to arguably say it's Middy.

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and, and Middy, I, I think, you know, as Thie is off, especially during the Civil War, Working for the allotment system or the passage of what will become the allotment system.

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It's Mitty, who's home with the children.

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Now, granted, she has help, hmm.

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about that.

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The people that are with her are Aunt Anna and Patsy Bullock, her mother.

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Um, and so, indeed, really, the Roosevelt children are being raised by a retinue of women.

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Uh, and it's Mitty who's there cooling every fever, who's there, you know, literally massaging Theodore Roosevelt's chest as a child so the blood can come out because he's hacking from such asthmatic attacks.

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Um, you know, that's scary in a, in a time when mortality was absolutely abysmal.

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I Yes.

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The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt by saying.

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From the beginning, the survival of Theodore Roosevelt was very much in doubt.

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You know, this is someone who had to learn to fight for their life from the very first breath.

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And it was Mitty, who was often there helping him, holding him, caring for him.

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You know, the stories of Thie are of cigar smoke and midnight rides and, uh, you know, challenges to make Heheheh.

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body, um, as well as his mind.

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Those are all wonderful things that obviously contributed to the psyche of Theodore Roosevelt, but it was, it was his mother who arguably kept him alive.

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Edward, your account of, of TR's life at Harvard, provides some insights into his youthful character, after the death of his father his sophomore year.

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Uh, would you like to share a little bit about, some of those findings and some of the sources that, that you use in, in telling that story? Sure, well, I mean, you know, 1878 is an incredibly consequential year in the life of Theodore Roosevelt on February 9th, his father, his beloved, revered father.

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Will die at age 46, which is very young, even for the time for him to pass away.

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And I would say somewhat unexpectedly in TR's view, you know, he goes back Yeah.

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after Christmas, knowing that his father isn't well, but it's, it's in a way a stunning death.

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I mean, his father is taken from him when he's only 20 years old.

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Um, and really, you know, goes through this remarkable period of introspection and knowing that he's lost the most important influence, the person that TR will say, the only man in whom I ever confided my innermost thoughts, um, and then will simultaneously say, you know, will wonder about a wife.

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I wonder who my wife will be.

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The only person that can replace my father, this person that I trusted and told everything to is a wife, which is an interesting kind of calculation.

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It tells you Yeah.

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years old, right? He's, he's, he's depressed about his father dying.

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But he's also curious about living and he wonders and says, I wonder who my wife will be a rare radiant maiden, is, of course, directly from Edgar Allen Poe and the Raven and to think about, um, TR liking Edgar Allan Poe and admiring Edgar Allan Poe in Mm hmm.

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Mm that was not a commonplace view, right? Poe is disgraced at this point, um, and really disregarded by, uh, at least literary history.

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So the idea that TR, who, who certainly had a good value system, is seeing the, the already seen Poe as one of the great literary minds of, um, his generation.

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It's interesting in and of itself.

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And then of course you fast forward in 1878 to August 22nd, and this mysterious, rupturous split that happens between Edith and Theodore, taking the walk up Tranquility, which of course was anything but tranquil because the Roosevelt's were there.

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And, um, hmm.

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Mm hmm.

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that day between these two that were supposed to be married? You know, did T.

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R.

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propose to Edith and she, as she later claimed, rejected him? You know, did he, did he get a little fresh with Edith and she took offense? Uh, you know, was he presumptive with his bonus sister that everyone presumed would always be his? We don't know.

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History doesn't provide the answer.

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But something so bad happened between these two that they split and it seemed as though they would never come back together.

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And then, of course, you fast forward two months later from August 22nd, 1878 to October 18th.

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And there's Alice Hathaway Lee, you know, this beautiful, beguiling, Mm hmm.

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Boston Brahmin who must have just taken TR's breath away.

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And suddenly it becomes Edith Hu for the next two years.

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And, uh, you know, it's just, it's just a remarkable formative year.

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Um, I, I, you know, I, I did a lot of research about Henry Davis Minot, um, his good friend in college.

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I think Of my not almost as a psychological mirror for Theodore Mm hmm.

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had these people in his life that were, you know, my not writes these excruciating letters about trying to find his manliness.

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You Yeah.

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he drops out of Harvard and goes into the 19th century equivalent of, uh, you know, of a, of a sanitarium for a brief while to, to try to, uh, to figure out who he is as a person.

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And yet he has this very close relationship with Theodore Roosevelt.

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So, you wouldn't, you wouldn't see T.

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R.

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and Henry Davis Minot necessarily as the best and closest of friends just because their disposition.

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Is so seemingly different, but I think that tells you something about how sensitive TR is and just how, how, how important natural science was to him as a potential career, which, which sort of gets to, you know, how Alice changed the trajectory of his life.

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But, Yeah.

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I, I could not have done the loves of Theodore Roosevelt without some precedential research.

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I mean, A most glorious ride, Edward P.

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Cohen Yes.

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diaries of TR.

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I mean, just a remarkable contribution to the, to the Theodore Roosevelt canon of work.

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Yes.

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way, that published right before the pandemic.

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So, I mean, I am literally shut out of any research facilities.

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I can't Mm hmm.

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on leads or piece together information and there.

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Remarkably, magically, serendipitously, is Cohen's incredible work.

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Um, you know, Betty Caroli and what she wrote in The Roosevelt Women, these lovely vignettes on each of the Roosevelt Women, far beyond TR's family, including the FDR line as well.

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And then I talk about it in The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt often, and cite the book often, but I think Dr.

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Kathleen Dalton's work, A Strenuous Life, Is is for my money, the, the greatest single volume biography of Theodore Roosevelt.

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I mean, she really puts forward, uh, both academic heft and.

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A narrative that, that positions TR in, in a way that I'm allowed to pick up where Kathy's left off and, and build a bigger portrait of these individual women and their importance, you know, hers is a cradle to grave biography of TR built on 40 years Yeah.

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dedicated academic and scholarly research.

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And I'm able to, you know, take the parts of that book.

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That are pertaining particularly to the women and try to expand and extrapolate what what those women meant to so lots of I stand on the shoulders of some pretty remarkable scholars and historians and writers in the Mm hmm.

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This seems like everyone we speak with pretty comes up as the definitive, uh, Yes.

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one volume edition of TR's biography.

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Well, and I'll tell you, Kurt, I mean, I, I, uh, Kathy was so incredible and so gracious to me.

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I was at Harvard after I left, uh, CNN.

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I was working with Anthony Bourdain on his program, Parts Unknown.

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Obviously his, uh, tragic passing and I find myself in Cambridge and Kathy, I reach out to Kathy.

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She not only me.

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Aided and answered my question.

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She invited me to her home.

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She and her lovely husband, Tony, we had lunch.

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She brought me down to her research.

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She said, whatever you need.

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You can take and photocopy or bring back and again, during the pandemic, Kathy has this, you know, voluminous record of research through 40 Yeah.

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of her academic pursuit of TR and I could reach out to her at any time and she would have the answer I needed at the moment I needed it.

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So the loves of Theodore Roosevelt is not possible without Kathy Dalton.

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Wonderful.

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That is.

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We had a question, and you've already answered it, I think, but in the book, you quote from T.

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R.

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's diary from 1880 that he calls Alice Hathaway Lee his first love.

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And you've already answered, so, I mean, do you think she was? no, I do not.

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I do not.

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I, I and I, I, man, I love Alice.

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Um, I, I believe that was his second love and first wife, and Edith was his first love and his second wife.

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you know, we can certainly talk about it, but no two diametrically different women have perhaps ever existed, yet they were both the wife of Theodore Roosevelt.

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And that is what I found also extraordinary about looking at Alice and Edith.

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You know, Alice is largely written off in most of the history of Theodore Roosevelt.

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She dies at 22, almost 23 years old.

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She is only with him for the sum total of six years, if you count the courtship years.

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They're married for barely four.

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You know, and there's just not a great historical record.

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But, if you look at what they did.

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What is there at the letters they did exchange at the time they did have together in Theodore Roosevelt's own words, he rose like a rocket when he was married to Alice.

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It is that Boston Brahmin progressivism of the Lee family and the Saltonstall family who of course come into Theodore's life after the loss of his father.

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So in a way, they substitute, you know, Mr.

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Henry Cabot Lee and, and, uh, you know, George Cabot Lee and, uh, the Saltonstalls, Leverett Saltonstall, they in a way become a substitute for what Theodore has lost.

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They're talking.

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Progressive politics, poetry, literature, all the things that he would have talked over with his father are suddenly there before him with the Lees and the Saltonstalls.

177
00:19:36,259.999 --> 00:19:39,59.999
That's all connected to, to Alice.

178
00:19:39,119.998 --> 00:19:49,929.998
I mean, it's an undeniable influence of this woman that, um, although there's not a great historical record, clearly meant an extraordinary amount to T.

179
00:19:49,930.098 --> 00:19:50,259.899
R.

180
00:19:50,259.899 --> 00:20:27,569.899
Yeah, so, a bit of the letters that we do have that survive there's this, what you describe as this infantilizing, uh, tone and the, the words are, are almost embarrassing, uh, to, to read from, from Roosevelt, just this gushing, uh, uh, language that he uses, but you, you say that, that, uh, uh, She made him want to be a better man, that, uh, that he changed, she changed him in ways that, um, that maybe history hasn't appreciated and that also, um, this process of winning her hand, uh, seems to have altered that, uh, TR's trajectory.

181
00:20:27,569.899 --> 00:20:29,398.899
Could you talk a little bit about sure.

182
00:20:29,408.899 --> 00:20:43,8.899
Well, Kurt, let's just stop for a moment and recognize that once again, Theodore Roosevelt learned this from his father, right? That so fee will write to midi do not become a strong minded woman.

183
00:20:43,708.899 --> 00:20:46,648.899
And of course, Middy has ever had other ideas.

184
00:20:47,148.899 --> 00:20:48,708.899
She was a strong minded woman.

185
00:20:48,708.899 --> 00:20:52,369.899
She couldn't not become a strong minded woman because she was a Yep.

186
00:20:52,398.899 --> 00:20:52,478.899
woman.

187
00:20:53,188.899 --> 00:20:58,878.899
And in the same way that Thee will infantilize Middy, Teddy, T.

188
00:20:58,878.899 --> 00:20:59,218.8985
R.,

189
00:20:59,218.8985 --> 00:21:00,678.799
will infantilize Middy.

190
00:21:01,219.899 --> 00:21:01,489.899
Yeah.

191
00:21:01,878.899 --> 00:21:09,638.899
and, and it's interesting to see that pattern repeat between father and son because I think Alice was very much like Mitty.

192
00:21:09,908.899 --> 00:21:12,398.899
I think, you know, she's strong-willed.

193
00:21:12,403.899 --> 00:21:16,178.899
She's vibrant, she's effervescent with life.

194
00:21:16,178.899 --> 00:21:19,28.899
She's beguiling, she's absolutely beautiful.

195
00:21:19,28.899 --> 00:21:22,418.899
I mean, one of the most eligible bachelorettes in all of Boston.

196
00:21:23,193.899 --> 00:21:33,333.899
Her nickname is sunshine, When, when, when Alice dies and we'll talk about that, about that, I think in a moment, right? The light has gone out of my life.

197
00:21:34,3.899 --> 00:21:40,353.899
He meant it both literally and metaphorically sunshine, Alice had died.

198
00:21:41,353.898 --> 00:21:41,919.899
I Yeah.

199
00:21:42,43.899 --> 00:22:02,748.898
it's, you know, to imagine somebody that Um, and present in life that with that positivity and attitude, um, it would be quite dramatic if, if she were lost and taken from you as, as early as Alice was, but I think, you know, to answer your question heard about how it changed his trajectory.

200
00:22:02,998.899 --> 00:22:09,388.898
I was just the earth that the Smithsonian with Darren Lund, the author of the naturalist.

201
00:22:10,473.898 --> 00:22:12,179.898
Darren was showing Yes.

202
00:22:12,393.898 --> 00:22:23,903.898
these extraordinary specimens of the Roosevelt Museum of Natural History that, coincidentally, TR donated in 1882 because he's done with natural science.

203
00:22:25,543.897 --> 00:22:26,499.898
you Mm-Hmm.

204
00:22:26,573.897 --> 00:22:28,243.898
passing curiosity for him.

205
00:22:28,253.897 --> 00:22:33,313.898
This is, he's six years old when he's collecting these specimens and doing taxidermy.

206
00:22:33,553.898 --> 00:22:36,883.898
He's interested in studying natural science at Harvard.

207
00:22:37,123.898 --> 00:22:43,993.898
Now, of course, you have to also say that at that point, science and the study of science is shifting to the laboratory.

208
00:22:44,3.898 --> 00:22:45,483.898
It's not out in the field.

209
00:22:45,643.897 --> 00:23:00,993.898
It's not the type of science that perhaps TR wanted to study, but really the change in attitude is due to Alice at the Lees and the Salton stalls, this progressive reform minded interest in politics.

210
00:23:01,343.898 --> 00:23:13,563.898
and making a difference in the world and, frankly, having the means, having the money to afford someone as eligible, um, and as desirable as Alice Hathaway Lee.

211
00:23:13,923.897 --> 00:23:17,293.898
Uh, I mean, he spends, and Edward Cohen documents this.

212
00:23:17,433.897 --> 00:23:21,193.897
Thank you, Edward, for going through the, the, the record.

213
00:23:21,533.897 --> 00:23:25,303.897
You know, the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars in modern times.

214
00:23:25,653.898 --> 00:23:37,503.898
Currency on trinkets and a horse and a dog cart and stable fees and entertainment and uh, you know, everything he can to win the hand of Alice.

215
00:23:37,563.898 --> 00:23:42,133.898
This is a two year absolute Mad pursuit.

216
00:23:42,183.898 --> 00:23:48,463.898
I mean, imagine if you're Alice Hathaway Lee being the object of Theodore Roosevelt's affection.

217
00:23:48,823.898 --> 00:24:04,593.898
I mean, watch out, right? The same energy he will put toward charging up Capitol Hill, the same energy he will put toward a record number of speeches on the campaign trail, he is putting toward one, as he says, all absorbing object.

218
00:24:04,943.898 --> 00:24:07,883.898
Alice, he wants to win her.

219
00:24:08,123.898 --> 00:24:11,843.898
And so in order to do so, he had to change trajectory.

220
00:24:11,873.898 --> 00:24:18,773.898
He had to change the pursuit of his life from natural science to the law, and that naturally led to politics.

221
00:24:19,239.898 --> 00:24:27,969.898
that? Well, you mentioned in the book that the company owned by George Cabot, Lee Alice's father was much involved with the beef bonanza.

222
00:24:28,269.898 --> 00:24:35,333.898
Do you think this influenced TRS decision to invest in cattle ranching in the Dakotas? I do, Larry.

223
00:24:35,503.898 --> 00:24:36,53.898
I do.

224
00:24:36,93.898 --> 00:24:49,253.8975
I think, I think that it's, almost irresistible in the conclusion, you know, George Cabot Lee and, um, his business, as you say, is very heavily invested.

225
00:24:49,253.8975 --> 00:24:55,453.898
Henry Davis, my not is involved in his Mm-Hmm? is involved in the railroad expansion.

226
00:24:55,453.898 --> 00:24:59,3.898
I mean, my not North Dakota is named for Henry Davis.

227
00:24:59,63.898 --> 00:24:59,463.898
My not.

228
00:25:00,643.898 --> 00:25:05,333.898
right? You know, so here are two people who are in his life right around the time.

229
00:25:05,638.898 --> 00:25:22,598.897
That he makes his first trip to Dakota, which is not, of course, in 1883, it's during his bachelor party and in 1880, he heads out there with Elliot and just dips into what would become a modern day North Dakota and, and the Minnesota border.

230
00:25:23,298.898 --> 00:25:24,979.898
You know, he's curious Yeah.

231
00:25:25,8.897 --> 00:25:25,748.898
part of the world.

232
00:25:25,838.898 --> 00:25:27,648.898
It's as far as the train will go.

233
00:25:27,873.898 --> 00:25:34,823.898
But he's also got a father in law who's invested in this business and he's got a friend whose father is very invested in the railroads.

234
00:25:35,163.898 --> 00:25:44,143.898
Um, so, yes, yet again, I think there's an unsung influence of Alice and the Lee family on interest in and knowledge of the West.

235
00:25:44,143.998 --> 00:25:58,683.897
Well, TR was influenced by Roosevelt's extended family? I mean, again, I, I think that there's.

236
00:25:59,643.897 --> 00:26:03,923.898
almost hard to find a circumstance in which.

237
00:26:04,373.898 --> 00:26:11,153.898
TR was not influenced by the Lees and the salt installs at this formative period of his life.

238
00:26:11,503.898 --> 00:26:11,743.898
Right.

239
00:26:11,743.898 --> 00:26:15,643.898
Let's just step back for the audience and talk about George Cabot Lee.

240
00:26:15,643.898 --> 00:26:25,273.898
I mean, I, I talk in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt about how, you know, um, the, the, the most Boston families were.

241
00:26:25,763.898 --> 00:26:27,863.898
Uh, politically active.

242
00:26:27,963.898 --> 00:26:30,263.898
They were reform minded.

243
00:26:30,313.898 --> 00:26:42,473.898
They were, um, you know, really thinking about the questions that would inform what TR's philosophy later become in terms of labor relationships, in terms of, uh, suffrage.

244
00:26:42,513.897 --> 00:26:45,873.898
I mean, let's just talk, let's just stop and think about suffrage for a moment.

245
00:26:46,293.898 --> 00:26:49,453.798
You know, Roosevelt is, is, you know.

246
00:26:50,443.898 --> 00:26:57,843.898
to win the hand of Alice Hathaway Lee in an 1880, shortly after he announces his engagement on February 14th.

247
00:26:58,578.898 --> 00:27:06,238.898
comes out with the, the, this incredible document supporting, uh, suffrage and equal rights for women.

248
00:27:06,248.898 --> 00:27:09,778.898
He says a woman shouldn't necessarily take her husband's name.

249
00:27:09,788.897 --> 00:27:11,298.898
He says women should own property.

250
00:27:11,348.898 --> 00:27:15,458.898
He says that women should become professionals, judges, and lawyers.

251
00:27:15,748.898 --> 00:27:20,118.898
This is 40 years before, uh, the 19th Amendment will pass.

252
00:27:20,118.898 --> 00:27:22,228.898
It's, it's incredibly progressive.

253
00:27:22,468.898 --> 00:27:25,448.898
You know, and then you take a look at some of the others in the family.

254
00:27:25,448.898 --> 00:27:26,898.898
You know, I mentioned earlier that.

255
00:27:27,938.898 --> 00:27:36,558.898
Mitty's mother, Patsy, and Mitty's aunt, Anna, are both living with the, uh, with the Roosevelt's during the Civil War.

256
00:27:36,808.898 --> 00:27:41,268.898
I mean, you know, they're an incredible influence on, on, um, T.

257
00:27:41,268.898 --> 00:27:41,548.8975
R.

258
00:27:41,548.8975 --> 00:27:42,728.898
as well growing up.

259
00:27:42,728.898 --> 00:27:49,998.898
I mean, he's growing up and is raised by a retinue of these interesting women who are always a part of his life.

260
00:27:50,393.898 --> 00:27:53,793.898
You have, um, you know, being homeschooled with Edith.

261
00:27:53,823.898 --> 00:27:57,343.898
You have the books that they were reading, uh, together.

262
00:27:57,353.898 --> 00:27:59,113.898
You have the McGuffey readers.

263
00:27:59,153.898 --> 00:28:05,923.898
I mean, there's so many different ways in which that, that kind of extended family had an influence on TR.

264
00:28:06,203.898 --> 00:28:09,823.897
Um, it, it's again, almost irresistible in its conclusion.

265
00:28:09,883.998 --> 00:28:25,529.8975
The question Well, Edward, both Larry and I took notice of, of this same section in the book here where we're kind of, we're building into Alice's, uh, uh, delivery and, and, uh, and then her death.

266
00:28:25,529.8975 --> 00:28:32,159.898
But you write, uh, time and again, Roosevelt's reaction to change was the same.

267
00:28:32,229.898 --> 00:28:39,359.898
Run, not to church, but instead to the Cathedral of With fatherhood impending, Roosevelt lit out for Dakota.

268
00:28:40,469.898 --> 00:28:43,789.897
When Alice and Mitty died, Roosevelt returned to the Badlands.

269
00:28:43,809.897 --> 00:28:52,789.898
Not to put too fine a point, or trivialize this point, but when the going got tough in his personal life, Theodore Roosevelt went hunting.

270
00:28:56,448.9605 --> 00:29:09,158.8605
You know, it's interesting, right? I mean, uh, Theodore Roosevelt again is known for his courage and his bravery, and it's a well deserved reputation.

271
00:29:09,268.8605 --> 00:29:09,789.798
I Yeah.

272
00:29:10,48.8605 --> 00:29:23,158.8605
will face, I, I like to say that after the death of Mitty and Alice, which I think you have to also extend the death of his father, right? He lost his father, his mother, and his wife in the space of six years.

273
00:29:23,928.8605 --> 00:29:31,658.8605
And in his time in Dakota, I believe Theodore Roosevelt had not a death wish, but a life wish.

274
00:29:32,498.86 --> 00:29:49,908.8605
I think if you have a loss that profound so early in your life, you really begin to understand the, the fragile nature of existence, that this life is only one you've got, and you've got to make the most of it.

275
00:29:50,338.8605 --> 00:29:53,409.798
And you can take risks Yeah.

276
00:29:53,543.8605 --> 00:29:59,863.8605
if they result in danger, it's way of knowing you're alive.

277
00:30:00,73.8605 --> 00:30:02,9.798
Um, now I Yeah.

278
00:30:02,463.8605 --> 00:30:06,513.8605
He combined that with what was, what was, what was obviously depression.

279
00:30:06,633.8605 --> 00:30:18,183.8605
I mean, the only person in his life that ever used the D word was, was his daughter, Alice, who would describe, you know, instead of dad is melancholy or blue or, you know, uh, not quite himself.

280
00:30:18,193.8595 --> 00:30:19,363.8595
She said, well, he's depressed.

281
00:30:19,443.8595 --> 00:30:20,369.798
I mean, he would Yeah.

282
00:30:21,383.8605 --> 00:30:30,593.8605
times in his life where he was depressed, you know, Certainly after the loss of, of his wife and, um, mother.

283
00:30:31,53.8605 --> 00:30:58,453.8605
Um, but a again, after the 1912 campaign, um, you know, he'll go through a pretty intensive period of depression I, you know, he knew how to react with courage in physical danger, but he didn't know, was, know how to react to personal crises and, and tragedies of, um, uh, and, and I think, and I think that, you know, you'll see this again and again throughout his life.

284
00:30:59,583.8605 --> 00:31:06,333.8605
when Edith was quite ill after the birth of Quentin and before he goes to, uh, Cuba.

285
00:31:07,283.8605 --> 00:31:09,363.8605
You know, it's not the greatest moment for T.

286
00:31:09,363.8605 --> 00:31:09,723.8605
R.

287
00:31:09,733.8595 --> 00:31:15,843.8595
And, uh, he doesn't really, um, doesn't live up to the ideals that you would hope he perhaps would.

288
00:31:16,133.8595 --> 00:31:25,413.8605
But you can also imagine that he's got this memory, this searing, horrible memory of the death of his wife and his mother.

289
00:31:25,798.8605 --> 00:31:29,184.798
And he just can't psychologically Yeah.

290
00:31:29,468.8605 --> 00:31:34,518.8605
And the best thing to do it for him to survive is to escape.

291
00:31:34,943.8605 --> 00:31:38,294.798
And to go, to go, to go to nature, to go Yeah.

292
00:31:38,433.8605 --> 00:31:42,403.8605
out, um, and not have to confront those, those feelings and those memories.

293
00:31:43,774.798 --> 00:31:52,224.798
You know, going along with that, in your book, you mentioned that TR is described as ashen by a colleague when you read the Second Telegram on February 13th.

294
00:31:53,24.798 --> 00:32:03,973.8595
And with that, could you tell us about the extraordinary account of Alice's delivery of Baby Alice as it was written by Tiara's, aunt Anna? Well, absolutely.

295
00:32:03,973.8595 --> 00:32:13,763.8605
I mean, I think, you know, let's, let's back up to February 11th, February 11th is the date that TR decides he's going to go to Albany.

296
00:32:14,138.8605 --> 00:32:15,558.8605
Because, of course, T.

297
00:32:15,558.8605 --> 00:32:15,848.8605
R.

298
00:32:15,868.8605 --> 00:32:16,498.8605
being T.

299
00:32:16,498.8605 --> 00:32:16,898.8605
R.,

300
00:32:16,898.8605 --> 00:32:21,818.8605
he believes there'll be some poetic symbolism in the birth of his first daughter.

301
00:32:21,828.8605 --> 00:32:33,668.8605
Naturally, obviously, his daughter will be born on February 14th, Day, which is four years to the day that he and Alice had announced their engagement.

302
00:32:33,714.798 --> 00:32:34,44.798
Mm-Hmm.

303
00:32:34,448.8605 --> 00:32:36,218.8605
he's got a lot of work to do in Albany.

304
00:32:36,218.8605 --> 00:32:38,888.8605
He wants to finish it up before the birth of his first child.

305
00:32:38,888.8605 --> 00:32:45,893.8605
It's, of course, customary at that time that the That the father wouldn't necessarily be certainly not in the delivery room.

306
00:32:45,893.8605 --> 00:32:58,123.7605
So it's not unusual, but nonetheless, his mother isn't feeling well and his wife is due and they've had quite a lot of difficulty getting pregnant, you know, later, Edith will say that.

307
00:32:58,513.8605 --> 00:32:59,23.8605
That T.

308
00:32:59,23.8605 --> 00:32:59,263.8605
R.

309
00:32:59,263.8605 --> 00:33:08,733.8605
told her that that Allison had some sort of gynecological surgery or intervention in order to become pregnant in 1883.

310
00:33:08,773.8605 --> 00:33:12,243.8605
So, you know, they, and they didn't have children right away.

311
00:33:12,243.8605 --> 00:33:16,948.7605
So, something, you know, there's reasons, perhaps that he would not have wanted to travel.

312
00:33:17,118.8605 --> 00:33:19,734.798
All the way to Albany ahead of the birth, Yeah.

313
00:33:21,338.8605 --> 00:33:31,158.8605
and of course, gets that first telegram, which delivers the news that, um, that Alice is only fairly well, but that doesn't necessarily concern him.

314
00:33:31,158.8605 --> 00:33:33,628.8595
There's celebration, there are cigars.

315
00:33:33,958.8605 --> 00:33:36,374.798
And then that 2nd telegram Mm-Hmm.

316
00:33:36,598.8605 --> 00:33:39,838.8605
know the contents of the telegram, but we do know the reaction.

317
00:33:41,213.8605 --> 00:33:58,413.8105
another legislator, who, as you said, described Theodore Roosevelt as ashen, he went white and he lit out of the of the New York State Assembly went immediately to the train station and a journey that should have taken to 2.

318
00:33:58,413.8105 --> 00:33:59,283.8605
5 hours at most.

319
00:33:59,673.8605 --> 00:34:01,734.798
Takes five and a half Yeah.

320
00:34:02,663.8605 --> 00:34:16,44.798
the New York Times described the fog that had descended over New York City as suicidal weather that those that were prone to atmospheric conditions or depression Mm-Hmm.

321
00:34:16,123.8595 --> 00:34:21,563.7605
go outside because you couldn't see one step in front of your own face.

322
00:34:21,783.8605 --> 00:34:24,743.8605
You couldn't see the boats out in the harbor.

323
00:34:24,743.8605 --> 00:34:28,443.8605
You couldn't see, uh, really where you were stepping in the street.

324
00:34:28,453.8605 --> 00:34:34,803.8605
And he gets off at grand central station after that excruciating five and a half hour train ride.

325
00:34:34,803.8605 --> 00:34:37,863.8595
And now remember, he's sitting there only with his own thoughts.

326
00:34:38,303.8595 --> 00:34:42,673.8595
And he has to be thinking of that train ride he took from Cambridge.

327
00:34:43,18.8605 --> 00:34:47,114.798
To New York City upon getting the news that his father Yes.

328
00:34:47,748.8605 --> 00:34:49,998.8605
and doesn't make it in time.

329
00:34:50,128.8605 --> 00:34:53,148.8605
He doesn't make it to the deathbed of his beloved father.

330
00:34:53,358.8605 --> 00:35:00,178.8595
And here it is again, 6 years later, he is on an excruciating 5 and a half hour train ride to New York City.

331
00:35:00,298.8595 --> 00:35:01,354.798
He gets Yeah.

332
00:35:02,38.8595 --> 00:35:08,958.8605
dashes up to 6 West 57th Street where Elliot has said, There is a curse on this house.

333
00:35:09,158.8605 --> 00:35:12,578.8605
Mother is dying and Alice is dying too.

334
00:35:13,64.798 --> 00:35:13,474.798
Yeah.

335
00:35:13,608.8605 --> 00:35:17,638.8605
up to the 3rd floor, attends to Alice, and at 2.

336
00:35:17,638.9605 --> 00:35:24,248.8605
30 in the morning on February 14th, 1884, he's called to the bedside of his beloved mother.

337
00:35:25,298.8605 --> 00:35:32,288.8605
passes away in the, in the very early morning hours of February 14th, and then back up to the third floor, T.

338
00:35:32,288.8605 --> 00:35:32,528.8605
R.

339
00:35:32,538.8595 --> 00:35:43,798.8605
goes to hold and clutch in his arms Alice for 12 hours, refusing to let go until she too succumbs and dies at about 1.

340
00:35:43,798.9605 --> 00:35:45,778.8605
30 in the afternoon Mm day.

341
00:35:46,258.8605 --> 00:35:51,708.8605
It's, almost, um, it's, it's, it's unbelievable.

342
00:35:52,568.8605 --> 00:35:54,188.8605
and, you know, I think Aunt Anna.

343
00:35:54,523.8605 --> 00:35:56,73.8605
writes this extraordinary letter.

344
00:35:56,73.8605 --> 00:36:10,33.8605
She says, she describes the circumstance of the birth of Alice and says, uh, that when baby Alice is born, doctor laments that the, that it's, it's a girl.

345
00:36:10,403.8605 --> 00:36:19,384.798
And Alice says, I love a little girl, uh, and is able to hold her baby in her arms and is able to recognize that hmm.

346
00:36:19,733.8605 --> 00:36:21,33.8605
had this child.

347
00:36:21,323.8605 --> 00:36:24,183.8595
But of course, by the time that Theodore Roosevelt reaches her.

348
00:36:24,643.8605 --> 00:36:27,693.8605
He shall never again be conscious, um, on this earth.

349
00:36:27,723.8605 --> 00:36:31,853.8605
And, and, you know, it's, it's interesting also they, they named the baby Alice.

350
00:36:32,123.8605 --> 00:36:33,484.798
You know, this thought Yeah.

351
00:36:34,283.8605 --> 00:36:40,253.8595
her from his soul is really countered by the fact that she's named Alice.

352
00:36:41,233.8605 --> 00:36:47,23.8605
I reveal for the first time in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, another pretty extraordinary event.

353
00:36:47,403.8605 --> 00:37:01,423.8605
Um, well, I was at Sagamore Hill doing research with Laura Centarati, this wonderful park ranger who, uh, was a caretaker at the, and a, and a curator at the Sagamore Hill for many years.

354
00:37:02,313.8605 --> 00:37:09,293.8605
And I think we saw a record that said Alice Hare, nine months, Alice Hare, eight months.

355
00:37:10,528.8605 --> 00:37:20,328.8605
she said, well, do we really want to see this? I said, I want to see anything and everything related to Alice, anything that exists, because there's so few things in the world left of hers.

356
00:37:20,784.798 --> 00:37:21,104.798
Yeah.

357
00:37:21,243.8605 --> 00:37:26,383.8605
pull this out and it's a, it's a blue kind of teal, almost Tiffany like box.

358
00:37:26,383.8605 --> 00:37:41,433.8605
It's not a Tiffany box, but it has that kind of color and we opened it up and there on the top was indeed the hair of Alice as a baby at eight months and then at eight or nine years old and clearly in her mother's handwriting the hair was there.

359
00:37:43,653.8605 --> 00:37:49,913.8605
that a very large swath Alice Hathaway Lee's hair.

360
00:37:50,618.8605 --> 00:37:55,24.798
there was a note in Theodore Roosevelt's unmistakable Mm hmm.

361
00:37:55,778.8605 --> 00:38:00,188.8605
said the hair of my sweet wife Alice after death.

362
00:38:00,918.8605 --> 00:38:09,868.86
So after the death of Alice, Theodore Roosevelt cut a large swath of his wife's hair.

363
00:38:09,868.86 --> 00:38:19,928.8605
He took a small amount and they created a necklace for baby Alice to wear during her christening two days after the funeral at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian.

364
00:38:20,463.8605 --> 00:38:27,503.8605
And then Theodore Roosevelt kept that keepsake, along with several pictures of Alice, in that box.

365
00:38:28,263.8605 --> 00:38:31,33.8605
rest of his life and out of Edith's view.

366
00:38:31,133.8605 --> 00:38:34,793.8605
She never knew that it existed and never discovered it.

367
00:38:35,203.8605 --> 00:38:39,183.8605
Um, it's been lost to history for all this many years.

368
00:38:39,513.8595 --> 00:38:52,24.798
And I think it's, it's almost, you know, that is, is evidence of the fact that Theodore Roosevelt did not indeed dislodge Alice from his Yeah.

369
00:38:52,63.8605 --> 00:38:57,313.8595
fact, it was so painful that he kept this keepsake hidden from Edith.

370
00:38:57,713.8605 --> 00:38:59,123.8605
Uh, for the rest of his life.

371
00:39:00,104.798 --> 00:39:03,724.798
Yeah, I've never heard that story before, uh, before reading it in your book, too.

372
00:39:03,724.798 --> 00:39:09,154.798
That was kind of a real revelation to how people could have passed that up all those years.

373
00:39:10,24.798 --> 00:39:10,464.798
Yeah.

374
00:39:10,913.8605 --> 00:39:11,53.8605
Yeah.

375
00:39:11,53.8605 --> 00:39:13,663.8605
I don't think he dislodged Alice Lee from his soul.

376
00:39:13,668.8605 --> 00:39:14,514.798
And I, I Yeah.

377
00:39:15,373.8605 --> 00:39:17,683.8605
makes me think even more of Edith in a, in a way.

378
00:39:17,683.8605 --> 00:39:24,473.8605
I mean, she, she was trs wife and had to live with.

379
00:39:24,828.8605 --> 00:39:37,888.8605
That and had to live with the living embodiment of, of his first wife in the form of their stepdaughter obviously caused a lot of friction and their relationship, which is a whole nother fascinating of discussion.

380
00:39:38,278.8605 --> 00:39:47,138.8605
But she also, you know, she had to live forever in the memory of a woman who would be 22 in Theodore Roosevelt's mind.

381
00:39:47,168.8605 --> 00:39:48,178.8605
I mean.

382
00:39:48,238.9605 --> 00:39:57,448.8605
I think they, they, they that incredibly loving an a great marriage.

383
00:39:57,718.8605 --> 00:40:11,868.8605
Uh, but tragedy preceding their m It almost makes what they accomplish together as a couple, um, even more incredible.

384
00:40:12,894.798 --> 00:40:15,144.797
Well, you mentioned already that when T.

385
00:40:15,144.798 --> 00:40:15,274.798
R.

386
00:40:15,274.798 --> 00:40:25,144.797
was confronted with status of fatherhood and being a a widower, over that his, instead of rushing headlong into it, he did the opposite.

387
00:40:25,144.797 --> 00:40:25,764.797
He ran.

388
00:40:25,872.8005 --> 00:40:37,368.8595
mean, And when he left his daughter, Alice, with his sister, Bambi, can you describe her extraordinary role and responsibilities that she assumed? for the system.

389
00:40:37,468.8595 --> 00:40:40,188.8605
Well, BAMI, I mean, TR says it best.

390
00:40:40,198.8605 --> 00:40:42,208.8605
BAMI is the feminine atlas.

391
00:40:42,498.8605 --> 00:40:45,158.8605
On whose shoulders the whole world rests.

392
00:40:45,188.8605 --> 00:40:50,38.8605
I mean, for Theodore Roosevelt, BAMI was a substitute mother.

393
00:40:50,198.8605 --> 00:41:03,488.8605
Um, BAMI was a only three years older than, than TR, but somehow, uh, seemingly all is the person who was there to help him do exactly what he needed at the time that he needed it.

394
00:41:03,728.8605 --> 00:41:06,668.8605
And boy, did he need her in 1884.

395
00:41:06,908.8605 --> 00:41:11,728.8605
I mean, let's not forget BAMI had lost her father and BAMI had lost her mother.

396
00:41:12,48.8605 --> 00:41:12,634.798
And Yeah.

397
00:41:12,678.8605 --> 00:41:14,748.8605
lost her very close Sister-in-law too.

398
00:41:14,748.8605 --> 00:41:22,98.8605
I mean, she had experienced loss, but yet it's, it's not Theodore Roosevelt who sells six West 57th Street.

399
00:41:22,103.8605 --> 00:41:25,578.8605
It's not Theodore Roosevelt who buys 4 22 Madison Avenue.

400
00:41:25,578.8605 --> 00:41:34,278.8605
And it's not Theodore Roosevelt, who cares? For the baby, for the better part of three years, all those three incredible things are done by Bambi Roosevelt.

401
00:41:34,648.8605 --> 00:41:50,738.8605
You know, she's, she is the one who really, um, not only takes care of the family and I mean, you know, you think the death of the father would mean that the new patriarch would naturally be Theodore Roosevelt.

402
00:41:51,208.8605 --> 00:41:59,758.8605
And it was in a sense, But it was BAMI who did all the roles and responsibilities of the patriarch of the family.

403
00:42:00,28.8605 --> 00:42:10,548.8605
It, to enable Theodore to really be the almost symbolic patriarch of the family and they all funneled their energy into and toward him and his success.

404
00:42:11,608.8605 --> 00:42:13,98.8605
it's, it's really extraordinary.

405
00:42:13,98.8605 --> 00:42:13,988.8605
I mean, BAMI.

406
00:42:14,278.8605 --> 00:42:25,108.8605
Uh, is so selfless in her giving of her time and her energy and her intellect, um, at every point, but, but no point more critical than 1884.

407
00:42:25,138.8605 --> 00:42:31,348.8595
And the other thing I'll say just quickly is Bambi knows she needs to let Theodore go.

408
00:42:32,343.8605 --> 00:42:38,283.8605
mourn and recover and be in nature, but she also knows she how to bring him back.

409
00:42:38,873.8605 --> 00:42:39,534.797
You Mm hmm.

410
00:42:40,783.8605 --> 00:42:46,893.8605
So 11 letters came into, uh, the purview of the Theodore Roosevelt Association.

411
00:42:46,903.8605 --> 00:42:50,818.8605
Lieutenant Colonel Greg Wynn, who now serves As the president of the T.

412
00:42:50,818.8605 --> 00:42:51,58.8605
R.

413
00:42:51,58.8605 --> 00:42:51,388.8605
A.

414
00:42:51,668.8605 --> 00:42:54,588.8605
Extraordinary man, a good friend and a wonderful T.

415
00:42:54,588.8605 --> 00:42:54,798.8605
R.

416
00:42:54,808.8605 --> 00:42:55,398.8605
Scholar.

417
00:42:55,668.8605 --> 00:43:06,388.8595
You know, Greg was doing some, some digging in the archives of while I was writing the, this book and miraculously found 11 letters.

418
00:43:06,858.8605 --> 00:43:13,508.8605
Locked in a safe at the TRA that had not seen the light of day since 1954.

419
00:43:13,534.798 --> 00:43:14,24.798
Wow.

420
00:43:14,244.798 --> 00:43:24,98.8595
Mm called the discovery of those letters perhaps the most significant discovery since Theodore Roosevelt's death in 1919.

421
00:43:24,398.8595 --> 00:43:29,388.8605
So, and, and those 11 letters, I'll tell you briefly, several of the letters are from 1885.

422
00:43:29,778.8605 --> 00:43:32,858.8605
You know, the dark year in Theodore Roosevelt's life.

423
00:43:33,283.8605 --> 00:43:37,803.8605
He's not writing much in his diary other than what he's shot or what he's hunted.

424
00:43:37,813.8605 --> 00:43:40,953.8605
He, there's really no introspective reflection.

425
00:43:40,993.8605 --> 00:43:44,563.8595
There's no letters being exchanged with hundreds of people.

426
00:43:44,563.8605 --> 00:43:47,143.8605
So you, you know, we know, we know what he's doing.

427
00:43:47,153.8595 --> 00:43:55,723.8605
He's, he's recovering from the deaths, um, at the Elkhorn, but what is he thinking? And now we have for the first time.

428
00:43:55,993.8605 --> 00:44:03,843.8605
Some of Theodore Roosevelt's thoughts in the forms of these letters, and there's an extraordinary letter from April of 1885, in which T.

429
00:44:03,843.8605 --> 00:44:04,53.8605
R.

430
00:44:04,53.8605 --> 00:44:19,373.8605
describes how after, uh, after two horses get, take off from the Elkhorn, he, he has to take off after that, after two strayed horses, and he realizes he's left without any gloves or a hat.

431
00:44:19,823.8605 --> 00:44:22,524.798
And a snowstorm comes hmm.

432
00:44:22,723.8605 --> 00:44:37,783.8605
suddenly that he has to spend the night in a dwelling with a Texan cowboy and realizes that the Texan cowboy has treated him first rate and he, he, he's got a great admiration for the Texan cowboy.

433
00:44:38,264.798 --> 00:44:38,464.798
Yeah.

434
00:44:38,483.8595 --> 00:44:49,664.798
he talks about how this, this place is a restorative tonic, um, how he is, how he is feeling in the Badlands and to whom is he confessing those feelings? You hmm.

435
00:44:49,708.8605 --> 00:44:51,8.8605
and it's BAMI who knows.

436
00:44:51,48.8605 --> 00:44:54,278.8605
He's keeping him updated on political events back home.

437
00:44:54,278.8605 --> 00:44:57,178.8595
She's keeping him updated on national politics.

438
00:44:57,228.8605 --> 00:45:05,538.8595
She's describing some of the things that are happening and when BAMI will discover, because she's not told by Theodore when she discovers.

439
00:45:05,823.8605 --> 00:45:09,463.8605
That, um, that deed they've been secretly engaged.

440
00:45:09,693.8605 --> 00:45:25,713.8605
She writes an extraordinary letter to, uh, Edith and basically says, Edith, it's so great to see that Theodore is re re emerging into the life he needs to be in, which is politics.

441
00:45:25,904.797 --> 00:45:26,174.797
Yeah.

442
00:45:26,223.8605 --> 00:45:35,263.8605
needs to be in the public, he needs to be active in civic engagement, and you are going to have to share him with the world.

443
00:45:35,263.9605 --> 00:45:38,64.798
It's very Yeah, yeah, that's very insightful.

444
00:45:38,104.798 --> 00:45:53,638.7605
I think on her part, just, I was thinking that too, reading those, um, your account of those letters, it must have been very satisfying for Theodore Roosevelt to report back to his sister, you know, all these, the, these manly, virile activities, uh, you know, the, place.

445
00:45:53,744.798 --> 00:46:08,784.798
know, almost bragging about the, the hardships he's enduring, uh, how satisfying that must be to the sister who saw him suffer so terribly as a child, uh, must have felt like he was, you know, He was overcoming a lot of those deficiencies.

446
00:46:09,138.8605 --> 00:46:11,228.8605
Well, and Kurt, you know, she suffered too.

447
00:46:11,228.8605 --> 00:46:12,314.798
I think Right.

448
00:46:12,578.8605 --> 00:46:24,638.8595
a spinal defect yeah, serious that her grandmother Patsy would describe how BAMI could not stand for more than 30 seconds before a countenance of pain would come over her face.

449
00:46:24,768.8595 --> 00:46:33,708.8605
And, you know, I think it's from BAMI that TR learned, um, to will his way through physical pain.

450
00:46:34,134.798 --> 00:46:34,394.798
Yeah.

451
00:46:34,673.8605 --> 00:46:54,693.8615
and I think by incidentally, it's from Middy, Middy adopted this philosophy after the death of Thee, live for the living yes, I Yeah, mean, that is the, that is, that is resilience, yeah, is the quality we most associate with Theodore Roosevelt, um, courage and resilience.

452
00:46:54,783.8605 --> 00:46:58,513.8605
And it is really from BAMI that he learned courage.

453
00:46:58,828.8605 --> 00:47:00,728.8605
Especially over physical pain.

454
00:47:00,948.8605 --> 00:47:05,778.8605
And it is from that he learned resilience that life is for the living, not for the dead.

455
00:47:05,778.8605 --> 00:47:12,48.8605
You need to put one foot in front of the other, no matter what happens to you, no matter how bad it is and find and fight your way through it.

456
00:47:12,489.798 --> 00:47:13,419.798
yeah, yeah.

457
00:47:13,419.798 --> 00:47:16,659.798
That example of perseverance and endurance.

458
00:47:16,709.798 --> 00:47:22,459.798
Um, you know, I almost learned that more from her than any man in his life.

459
00:47:22,539.798 --> 00:47:31,839.797
It seems one of my favorite quotes of TR is, uh, throughout history, no man, uh, who ever lived a life of ease left a name worth remembering.

460
00:47:32,159.797 --> 00:47:35,619.797
Um, that's, you know, and I think of Bambi there too.

461
00:47:35,619.897 --> 00:47:38,784.698
It's just with all these extraordinary ways in which she is.

462
00:47:39,384.798 --> 00:47:40,614.798
leading the family.

463
00:47:40,614.798 --> 00:47:49,754.798
It's, it's easy to forget all of the physical pain and suffering that she experiences every hour of, of her life.

464
00:47:49,784.797 --> 00:48:03,84.798
Uh, but yeah, she's managing the, you know, the supervising the construction of what's going to become Sagamore Hill while he's out in the Dakotas, uh, hunting and, and she's, you, you, you, this is really interesting.

465
00:48:03,84.798 --> 00:48:05,544.798
You, you compare BAMI.

466
00:48:06,194.798 --> 00:48:17,124.797
Bammy's, uh, influence as a political strategist and advisor to Robert Kennedy's role with JFK, I thought that's a really interesting comparison to make.

467
00:48:17,833.8605 --> 00:48:21,793.8605
I, I think, you know, um, Alice, the daughter said it best.

468
00:48:21,793.8605 --> 00:48:25,283.8605
Alice Roosevelt Longworth said, had had BAMI lived.

469
00:48:26,238.8605 --> 00:48:30,558.8605
Had BAMI been a man, she, not TR, would have been president.

470
00:48:30,754.797 --> 00:48:31,114.797
Yeah.

471
00:48:31,448.8605 --> 00:48:34,468.8605
none other than Eleanor Roosevelt agreed with that assessment.

472
00:48:34,838.8605 --> 00:48:41,348.8595
I think the only thing that held BAMI back from accomplishing more in her time was her gender.

473
00:48:42,98.8595 --> 00:48:50,708.8605
And the fact that she selflessly all of her faith and energy into her brother and pushed him forward in every way that she could.

474
00:48:50,708.8605 --> 00:49:05,588.8605
I mean, you think, you know, uh, it's what's, what's amazing as I did the research, I was I mean, I had this argument and thought that Bambi was important, but I kept discovering things that I didn't know she was connected to.

475
00:49:06,18.8605 --> 00:49:09,338.8605
It's Bambi who knew Richard Harding Davis.

476
00:49:09,818.8605 --> 00:49:24,238.8605
And Richard Richard Harding Davis to Theodore Roosevelt while TR is police commissioner will, of course, Richard Harding Davis will go on to write about TR and Cuba and then we'll slip a lot of those stories back to the press and emphasize.

477
00:49:24,583.8605 --> 00:49:25,763.8605
The importance of TR.

478
00:49:25,793.8605 --> 00:49:47,843.8605
So here, his sisters are quite literally working almost as RFK to JFK, political advisor and, and strategist and press secretary, you know, it's BAMI who meets Charles McKim and will introduce Charles Edith and Charles McKim will become the architect of the renovation of the white house.

479
00:49:48,223.8605 --> 00:49:54,233.8605
Of course, it's BAMI who suggests to Theodore, you really ought to talk to Bellamy's store.

480
00:49:54,728.8605 --> 00:50:03,878.8605
About your, hm, lack of prospects, and it's bammy who's exchanging letters with tr talking about the coming election.

481
00:50:04,208.8605 --> 00:50:10,4.797
Um, and, and how perhaps if he's to get on board the McKinley train, he yeah.

482
00:50:10,828.8605 --> 00:50:11,598.8605
Employment.

483
00:50:11,938.8605 --> 00:50:21,68.8605
I mean, she, she is architecting every move that he will make, uh, you know, she, it's BAMI that supports the gubernatorial run.

484
00:50:21,508.8605 --> 00:50:31,688.8605
BAMI doesn't support the move to vice president, uh, you know, Edith and BAMI, they all think this is a terrible job and it obviously was going to be except for fate.

485
00:50:32,53.8605 --> 00:50:47,523.8605
Um, you know, and, and it's just really, I had a hard time finding a moment when Bambi or Edith Connie were not involved in something that Theodore Roosevelt decided to do or not to do.

486
00:50:49,23.8605 --> 00:50:59,743.8605
Bambi had some influence in this next question, um, TR would return to New York for various visits and encountered his first love, Edith.

487
00:50:59,743.9605 --> 00:51:06,807.824
Could you describe their courtship? Hehehehe, it was, it was like everything in Theodore Roosevelt's life.

488
00:51:07,117.924 --> 00:51:08,417.924
Sudden and impulsive.

489
00:51:08,418.024 --> 00:51:16,257.924
Um, Theodore did return multiple times to New York, of course.

490
00:51:16,287.924 --> 00:51:20,347.923
He didn't stay every day in North Dakota for the better part of those two years.

491
00:51:20,697.924 --> 00:51:25,557.924
But a particularly significant moment happened in October of 1885.

492
00:51:25,557.924 --> 00:51:30,937.924
He came back for a hunt at what would become Sagamore Hill.

493
00:51:31,307.924 --> 00:51:54,822.923
Um, he he he uh, he He encountered Edith as Theodore is coming down the stairwell and Edith enters the home and suddenly confronted in front of him is the one person he had explicitly said to Bambi, I do not want to see.

494
00:51:55,262.924 --> 00:52:04,982.924
I think of course, you know, probably talked about him on this podcast many times, right? He's pacing the Ferris general store and the bedroom upstairs.

495
00:52:05,152.924 --> 00:52:06,632.923
I have no constancy.

496
00:52:06,632.924 --> 00:52:08,12.924
I have no constancy.

497
00:52:08,217.924 --> 00:52:28,967.924
He knows that if he sees Edith, all the feelings, all of the mm hm, come rushing back and there will be nothing that he can do to live up to this Victorian code of never remarrying and, and of course, honor, you know, somehow dishonoring Alice and Alice's memory by By reuniting with Edith.

498
00:52:29,407.924 --> 00:52:36,97.924
Now what I find interesting is who set that up? You know, we don't, history doesn't know, 'cause he's told Bammy, I don't wanna see her.

499
00:52:36,97.924 --> 00:52:42,457.924
And there is some evidence that Bammy was not particularly won over by Edith coming back in.

500
00:52:42,457.924 --> 00:52:49,337.924
I mean, remember with Alice? Alice, they had a woman who was willing to share Theodore with them.

501
00:52:50,77.924 --> 00:52:53,777.924
Edith, know, she's, she's been the bonus sister.

502
00:52:53,797.924 --> 00:52:55,987.924
She's always on the outside looking in.

503
00:52:55,997.924 --> 00:53:00,197.924
She's the one hiding her shabby toys when the Roosevelt's come over.

504
00:53:00,313.8615 --> 00:53:06,357.923
mm hm, she's the one who doesn't get to go on the grand tours of Europe and, and, and elsewhere.

505
00:53:06,652.924 --> 00:53:14,583.8948333
You know, I would imagine there's a little bit of tension there when Edith comes back into the fold and suddenly yeah, yeah.

506
00:53:14,583.8948333 --> 00:53:14,983.7615
Mm hm.

507
00:53:15,52.923 --> 00:53:20,332.924
been a little bit on the outside looking in is the most important woman in Theodora's life.

508
00:53:20,772.924 --> 00:53:24,892.924
Um, my theory, and I couldn't prove it, but I'll go ahead and share it.

509
00:53:25,172.924 --> 00:53:30,532.924
I think that Aunt Anna is the prime suspect in who leaked the engagement.

510
00:53:30,937.924 --> 00:53:41,117.924
To the New York Times, I think on Anna is the one who wrote the incredibly devastating account of, of Alice's birth and, and Alice's death.

511
00:53:41,497.924 --> 00:53:54,557.923
And, uh, I think on Anna was the 1 who knew that Edith was the 1 who could bring Theodore back and make was the 1 who even set up that meeting because it probably wasn't me.

512
00:53:54,807.924 --> 00:53:58,457.924
Uh, but there it was and so very quickly within 6 weeks.

513
00:53:58,792.924 --> 00:54:06,852.924
They were secretly engaged, told them, told hardly anyone, and Edith of course goes to Europe, I mean moves to Europe while T.

514
00:54:06,852.924 --> 00:54:07,2.924
R.

515
00:54:07,2.924 --> 00:54:15,312.923
goes back to Dakota, now that is holding up the subterfuge, but what I love is that of course this reinvigorates T.

516
00:54:15,312.924 --> 00:54:15,652.924
R.

517
00:54:16,12.924 --> 00:54:18,662.924
There's, uh, two bursts at the Elkhorn.

518
00:54:18,692.924 --> 00:54:22,352.924
Suddenly the Elkhorn, his respite is becoming more like a daycare.

519
00:54:22,552.924 --> 00:54:25,213.8615
Uh, you know, he's, he's I like that line.

520
00:54:26,152.924 --> 00:54:31,142.9235
and suddenly he's talking about this Saint Austin, uh, of, of Patty Selms.

521
00:54:31,142.9235 --> 00:54:38,83.8615
I mean, clearly something's been awakened in our Theodore Roosevelt that he's, he's seeing women with new eyes again Yeah.

522
00:54:39,2.924 --> 00:54:43,602.923
in a way that he really wasn't able to during that 12 to 18 months of mourning.

523
00:54:44,53.8615 --> 00:54:44,433.8615
Yeah.

524
00:54:44,463.8615 --> 00:54:44,793.8615
Yeah.

525
00:54:45,183.8615 --> 00:54:47,733.8615
It's interesting you bring up, uh, aunt Anna.

526
00:54:47,853.8615 --> 00:54:49,923.8615
Uh, this would be Ty's sister.

527
00:54:50,222.9573334 --> 00:54:53,502.924
Coach.

528
00:54:53,738.8615 --> 00:54:59,853.8615
young Ededie are both being homeschooled as kids under the tutelage of Aunt Anna.

529
00:54:59,973.8615 --> 00:55:04,503.8615
And uh, so you said really from the beginning they were kindred book lovers.

530
00:55:04,738.8615 --> 00:55:11,618.8615
I like how you, bring up, uh, Louisa May Alcott's Little Women, and you can't help but think how, how young T.

531
00:55:11,618.8615 --> 00:55:11,778.8615
D.

532
00:55:11,778.8615 --> 00:55:14,883.7615
would obviously, this would evoke those, those feelings.

533
00:55:15,253.8615 --> 00:55:24,523.861
Those, uh, strong women characters, you know, holding the family together while the father is off at war, doing his duty, and, you know, that would clearly resonate with, uh, with a young T.

534
00:55:24,523.861 --> 00:55:24,793.8605
D.

535
00:55:24,933.8605 --> 00:55:39,913.8615
Um, I was gonna ask if, if there's anything more you wanted to share about, uh, those childhood experiences, uh, that Edith had with the Roosevelt siblings, how important that was in those connections, uh, later in life.

536
00:55:40,397.925 --> 00:55:43,108.8615
Well, he just had a much harder life, right? Yeah.

537
00:55:43,357.923 --> 00:55:49,867.924
has an alcoholic father and she's watching the degradation of his reputation in their family fortune.

538
00:55:49,867.924 --> 00:56:10,552.9235
And, um, Uh, you know, she's got to be looking on with some degree of jealousy at the, at the Roosevelt's, uh, seemingly perfect family, um, you know, joyful and happy together, even though, of course, you have this, you know, bitter divide, a, a house divided and a nation divided during the Civil War, and yet Middy and Thee disagree without being Disagreeable.

539
00:56:10,552.9235 --> 00:56:14,742.9235
What an incredible example, um, to their children.

540
00:56:14,742.9235 --> 00:56:16,692.9235
And, and Edith doesn't have that.

541
00:56:16,722.9235 --> 00:56:20,512.9235
You know, Edith, Edith is growing up in a very different circumstance.

542
00:56:20,512.9235 --> 00:56:26,252.9225
I, you brought up the literary references that, that I make in The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt to little women.

543
00:56:26,542.9235 --> 00:56:27,912.923
And of course, uh, T.

544
00:56:27,912.923 --> 00:56:28,72.9225
R.

545
00:56:28,82.9225 --> 00:56:29,182.9235
's interest in Poe.

546
00:56:29,572.9235 --> 00:56:42,812.9235
I think, you're a sickly child, particularly in an era where there's, you know, incredible, uh, smog and dust and, I mean, just horrible sanitary conditions in New York.

547
00:56:43,82.9235 --> 00:56:46,952.9235
You know, Theodore Roosevelt is living a life of the mind.

548
00:56:47,322.9225 --> 00:56:49,932.9235
He's not the Rushmore Roosevelt that we know.

549
00:56:50,277.9235 --> 00:56:55,817.9235
And think of today, he's, living life through books and imagination.

550
00:56:56,67.9235 --> 00:57:12,228.861
And I think in many times in his life, he did see things that were happening the lens of, of the plot of a novel, or, uh, I mean, he wrote his life is almost in that kind of, Mm hmm.

551
00:57:12,307.9235 --> 00:57:19,557.9235
wrote Theodore Roosevelt story and submitted it to Simon and Schuster as the next book after the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, it would get rejected.

552
00:57:19,558.0235 --> 00:57:19,572.8235
It's.

553
00:57:19,722.9235 --> 00:57:36,742.9225
It's too outlandish, too many twists and turns and, you know, yet he does, you know, I could see him relating to his family experience and his father's absence in the way that they, in the way that is written in Little Women.

554
00:57:37,12.9235 --> 00:57:41,392.9235
I could see, you know, he's bringing up Poe at various points in his life.

555
00:57:42,142.986 --> 00:57:59,798.861
You know, I write the poem Annabelle Lee in The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt because you have to wonder is the, is the lost Lenore, is the lost Annabelle Lee, is he, is he thinking of Alice or is he thinking of Edith Yeah.

556
00:58:00,212.985 --> 00:58:21,612.986
these moments? Because a strange way you, you know, there's this poetic symmetry to the idea that after this tragic loss, is brought back to the woman that would restabilize his life and allow him to accomplish these extraordinary things that, uh, he wouldn't have been able to do alone.

557
00:58:21,938.861 --> 00:58:30,18.861
Now, in your book you list Edith's accomplishments and her influence as First Lady.

558
00:58:30,428.861 --> 00:58:36,498.761
Could you describe some of those for our listeners? How much time do you have, Larry? I mean, Ha ha.

559
00:58:38,872.986 --> 00:58:41,82.986
I mean, well, let's just we'll just go through that.

560
00:58:41,82.986 --> 00:58:42,262.9855
We'll play the hits here.

561
00:58:42,262.9855 --> 00:58:49,212.986
I mean, Edith is the 1st 1st lady to hire a social secretary bell hanger.

562
00:58:49,422.986 --> 00:58:56,272.985
This will revolutionize the role and every single successor from that moment on, we'll have a social secretary.

563
00:58:56,657.986 --> 00:59:12,917.887
Edith, uh, arranges for the reconstruction of the White House, hires the architect, creates a, a, a difference between the executive, she creates a place from which the executive function of government in the United States occurs.

564
00:59:13,287.886 --> 00:59:15,947.885
She has a family, you know, she has six children.

565
00:59:15,957.885 --> 00:59:24,117.886
Now, not all of them are in the house at the same time, but she wants a private residence and a public component of the White House.

566
00:59:24,582.886 --> 00:59:28,322.886
So they will create the East Wing and the West Wing.

567
00:59:28,632.886 --> 00:59:32,452.886
They will create what becomes the, the Oval Office.

568
00:59:32,612.886 --> 00:59:38,28.761
And they will talk about how this is no longer the Executive Mansion, but the White Mm hmm.

569
00:59:38,212.886 --> 00:59:42,742.885
Uh, she will create a Colonial Garden, which will later become the Rose Garden.

570
00:59:43,92.886 --> 00:59:51,647.886
Uh, you know, she will design, uh, The offices on the second floor in the private residence and literally put hers right next to Theodore.

571
00:59:51,647.886 --> 00:59:56,202.886
So she's the first person he sees in the morning and the last person he talks to at night.

572
00:59:57,97.886 --> 00:59:57,798.761
read Yeah.

573
00:59:57,987.886 --> 01:00:01,997.886
newspapers a day and talk through every part of the news that he needs to know.

574
01:00:02,187.886 --> 01:00:07,257.886
She goes on long walks and advises him on every major appointment and every major decision.

575
01:00:07,597.886 --> 01:00:12,187.885
She does some other things that are, are aesthetic, but still to this day, influential.

576
01:00:12,497.886 --> 01:00:21,977.886
She collects the first China that becomes the White House China collection, and then will go back in prior administrations and have the donation of those administrations China.

577
01:00:22,237.886 --> 01:00:25,488.761
She'll establish the White House First lady's portraits, Mm hmm.

578
01:00:26,202.886 --> 01:00:41,852.885
White House to this day, she begins salons, um, which, you know, Jacqueline Kennedy will become renowned for the salons that they hold the artists and the, the writers and the musicians who will come and play at the White House that starts with Edith.

579
01:00:42,582.885 --> 01:00:43,362.886
They entertain 40.

580
01:00:45,437.886 --> 01:00:53,878.761
People in their first year in the White House, uh, you know, and she does all of this with grace and Yes.

581
01:00:54,47.886 --> 01:00:55,797.886
almost completely unaffected.

582
01:00:55,797.886 --> 01:01:07,697.886
1 of the 1 of my favorite quotes about it from Margaret Chandler, who was a friend of theirs from the early days of civil service commissioner all the way through the end of their life.

583
01:01:07,697.886 --> 01:01:12,157.886
And Margaret Chandler will say that, you know, that of Edith.

584
01:01:12,782.886 --> 01:01:19,242.886
,just as the camera comes into focus, Edith steps out of view as the shutter is clicked.

585
01:01:19,542.886 --> 01:01:22,448.761
And that is, that's Edith, right? She just Yes.

586
01:01:22,822.885 --> 01:01:26,292.886
she's unaffected and, uh, by the hoopla.

587
01:01:26,312.886 --> 01:01:31,792.886
She enjoys perhaps being at the center of activity and attention, but she doesn't need it.

588
01:01:32,172.886 --> 01:01:43,962.885
Like TR does, he's the politician, he's the extrovert, you know, she's the quiet and reserved and very determined and extraordinarily intelligent, um, uh, advisor.

589
01:01:43,962.985 --> 01:01:45,978.761
I just want Yeah.

590
01:01:46,68.761 --> 01:02:00,868.761
Yeah, there's a, Council a definite passing of the baton there from, from BAMI to Edith once, as soon as they're married, um, and that's really a very similar role, I guess, that BAMI had played, is that behind the scenes influencer.

591
01:02:01,528.761 --> 01:02:06,298.761
Uh, who, uh, just out of view, that's, uh, Just out what, Yeah.

592
01:02:06,398.761 --> 01:02:12,368.761
the beginning of the administration, right? McKinley is assassinated and Ida McKinley needs to move out of the White House.

593
01:02:12,368.761 --> 01:02:14,874.635
They wanna respectfully give her time to Yeah.

594
01:02:14,874.735 --> 01:02:16,111.3353333
Yeah.

595
01:02:16,111.3353333 --> 01:02:17,347.9356667
Yeah.

596
01:02:17,347.9356667 --> 01:02:18,584.536
Yeah.

597
01:02:18,888.761 --> 01:02:25,698.761
administration are at 1733 N Street BA's Home, which becomes known in the press as the little White House.

598
01:02:26,98.761 --> 01:02:33,828.761
I mean, she quite literally, uh, her home became the White House, uh, because of the president, uh, president's presence.

599
01:02:34,188.76 --> 01:02:38,638.76
And, uh, you know, she'll continue to advise her brother, but it is always a delicate dance.

600
01:02:38,648.76 --> 01:02:45,828.76
Where's Edith's role? Where's Banny's role? What's Connie's role? But they all continue to be, uh, in support of him.

601
01:02:47,324.636 --> 01:02:52,834.636
you, you're right that Edith, Edith was in the room where it happened because she designed it that way.

602
01:02:53,64.635 --> 01:03:02,84.636
Uh, and you also share this quote, uh, whenever I go against her judgment, I regret it, obviously talking about Edith there.

603
01:03:02,84.636 --> 01:03:11,819.636
So, uh, would you, uh, care to elaborate on Edith's, um, influence, um, on Roosevelt during his presidency in particular.

604
01:03:12,678.761 --> 01:03:16,338.761
Well, it's it's take that, you know, whenever I go against her judgment, I regret it.

605
01:03:16,418.761 --> 01:03:17,524.636
Um, by the way, Yeah.

606
01:03:17,698.761 --> 01:03:28,538.761
I talk about that quote amongst, uh, if a man and woman are present, and they're married, there's, there's always a smile on the face of the woman and kind of a look of acknowledgement from the man.

607
01:03:29,28.761 --> 01:03:30,28.761
That's probably true.

608
01:03:30,458.761 --> 01:03:50,823.76
Uh, you know, I think, you know, You know, none other than Henry Stimson, who who's lately been of increased fame because of the popularity of the movie Oppenheimer and the credible book, um, that preceded it, the Pulitzer prize winning book American Prometheus, uh, you know, Stimson will advise.

609
01:03:51,598.76 --> 01:03:54,748.76
Truman on the selection of sites for the atomic bomb.

610
01:03:54,878.76 --> 01:03:59,758.76
I mean, he, he serves in multiple administrations from Theodore Roosevelt forward.

611
01:04:00,98.76 --> 01:04:05,678.759
So this is a person who's known for exquisite judgment and, and, um, incision.

612
01:04:06,658.76 --> 01:04:17,178.76
And says of Edith that whenever she was a part of the decision making, Theodore Roosevelt made better decisions.

613
01:04:18,873.76 --> 01:04:22,823.76
I, I put it this way when, Theodore Roosevelt.

614
01:04:24,13.76 --> 01:04:28,543.76
Was impulsive or didn't do something that Edith had recommended.

615
01:04:30,428.76 --> 01:04:34,558.76
And whenever he did follow her advice, he was generally successful.

616
01:04:34,968.76 --> 01:04:39,44.635
I mean, I think about, think about 1912, right? Oh, yes.

617
01:04:39,158.76 --> 01:04:43,498.76
only person who levels with him and says, put it out of your mind, Theodore.

618
01:04:43,558.759 --> 01:04:46,548.759
You will never be president of the United States again.

619
01:04:46,888.76 --> 01:04:47,784.635
That is not Yeah.

620
01:04:48,34.635 --> 01:04:48,554.635
Mm hmm.

621
01:04:49,48.76 --> 01:04:55,718.76
And she has a horse accident and basically suffers what is undoubtedly a concussion.

622
01:04:56,183.76 --> 01:05:00,13.76
Um, and it is during those moments that T.

623
01:05:00,13.76 --> 01:05:00,223.76
R.

624
01:05:00,233.76 --> 01:05:02,653.76
conspires with his younger sister, Connie.

625
01:05:03,224.635 --> 01:05:03,614.635
Yeah.

626
01:05:03,733.76 --> 01:05:08,963.76
the supportive governors and get, put his hat in the ring for 1912.

627
01:05:08,983.76 --> 01:05:23,543.76
Now, eventually she comes around and joins the excitement and hoopla of the campaign and begins to believe, but, but she saw the situation more pragmatically than he did, you know, that it's probably not going to work out.

628
01:05:23,553.76 --> 01:05:26,293.76
Doesn't mean it's not worth trying, but just politically.

629
01:05:26,753.76 --> 01:05:29,643.76
You're, you're, you're never going to be president of the United States again.

630
01:05:29,833.76 --> 01:05:37,464.635
Um, and, and, and date that back to the decision on election eve of 19, I mean, he, Yeah.

631
01:05:38,473.76 --> 01:05:40,883.76
political decision that Theodore Roosevelt ever made.

632
01:05:41,203.76 --> 01:05:54,973.76
declaring that he would not be a candidate for president again in 1908, uh, at the apotheosis of his greatest political achievement, winning elected office to the presidency in his own right.

633
01:05:55,163.76 --> 01:05:56,733.759
He made himself a lame duck.

634
01:05:57,3.759 --> 01:06:04,274.635
Uh, you know, Edith, there's debate about whether Edith was in the room or not to witness that, but undoubtedly she wasn't consulted No.

635
01:06:04,274.735 --> 01:06:06,984.535
Yeah.

636
01:06:07,463.76 --> 01:06:31,394.635
And indeed, probably the worst political decision in terms of practical politics that TR ever made, right? And the 1912 election, Edith made the comment to TR that nothing but regret would come of this.

637
01:06:32,414.635 --> 01:06:33,564.635
So she knew.

638
01:06:34,423.76 --> 01:06:37,723.76
nothing but regret will come of Yeah, indeed that's right.

639
01:06:37,723.76 --> 01:06:42,163.76
I mean, you know, the most successful independent candidacy in the history of the United States.

640
01:06:42,168.76 --> 01:06:46,213.76
He, he won the nomination, but it was denied him.

641
01:06:46,563.76 --> 01:06:49,593.76
You it's a quintessential rooseveltian battle.

642
01:06:49,893.76 --> 01:06:55,383.76
Does it matter if you won as long as you strove valiantly? And fought the good fight.

643
01:06:55,703.76 --> 01:06:59,593.76
Um, but nonetheless, that shows you she's pragmatic.

644
01:06:59,873.76 --> 01:07:02,963.76
She, she understands the political circumstances.

645
01:07:03,233.76 --> 01:07:09,513.76
He's more impulsive and those, that impulsivity is both his greatest strength and his, and his worst weakness.

646
01:07:10,519.635 --> 01:07:14,358.76
yeah, Exactly the same as was described.

647
01:07:14,388.76 --> 01:07:18,638.76
Many, you know, impulsive, a lively last with impulsivity.

648
01:07:18,918.76 --> 01:07:24,468.76
Uh, you know, says to feed, or, you know, it says to fee, you know, what my temperament is.

649
01:07:24,738.76 --> 01:07:26,769.635
I am impulsive, mm hmm.

650
01:07:27,378.76 --> 01:07:30,198.759
you just once you tie these pieces together.

651
01:07:30,498.76 --> 01:07:31,208.76
Who is T.

652
01:07:31,208.76 --> 01:07:31,638.76
R.?

653
01:07:31,708.76 --> 01:07:34,838.76
He is his father's son, but he is his mother's son.

654
01:07:35,158.76 --> 01:07:39,978.7595
It is the spitting image of his mother and that impulsivity that personality.

655
01:07:39,978.7595 --> 01:07:43,818.76
And, um, then you've got this pragmatic woman like Edith.

656
01:07:44,573.76 --> 01:07:51,33.76
is the opposite of Alice, you know, um, uh, trying to reign him in, uh, it, it, it's fascinating.

657
01:07:52,539.635 --> 01:08:17,119.535
well you provided in the book an excellent explanation of the family origin of Edith's middle name Kermit and the name of their second son now it might seem like a minor thing to some of our listeners but In the work Kurt and I have done with the public, and what you've done with the public, I'm sure, too, we get the question often, where does the name Kermit come from? Would you mind sharing your findings? Hmm.

658
01:08:17,213.76 --> 01:08:30,193.76
extraordinary? So I was out in Medora, North Dakota with um, a lovely woman, Priscilla Roosevelt, the wife of Kermit Roosevelt, and she tells me this story that is in the book.

659
01:08:30,193.76 --> 01:08:32,473.76
She said, well, you know the origin of the name Kermit.

660
01:08:32,513.86 --> 01:08:38,289.635
I mean, I, I think I know, I mean, Kermit and Corot and, Yeah.

661
01:08:38,289.735 --> 01:08:39,759.535
Heh heh heh heh.

662
01:08:39,813.76 --> 01:08:44,233.76
and she says, well, no, no, no, but I mean, she said, I swear that this is in a book somewhere.

663
01:08:44,233.76 --> 01:08:46,333.759
And I looked and I said, it's not in a book anywhere.

664
01:08:46,333.76 --> 01:08:47,863.759
I haven't heard this story before.

665
01:08:48,873.76 --> 01:08:56,793.76
the, so Edith's father, Charles Corot in business with Robert Kermit.

666
01:08:57,348.76 --> 01:09:03,169.535
And so they were business partners in Kermit and Corot, uh, the shipping company, hmm.

667
01:09:03,258.76 --> 01:09:13,538.76
parents, first child was a son whom they named Kermit because Robert Kermit had basically saved them from financial ruin.

668
01:09:14,88.76 --> 01:09:28,348.76
Robert Kermit had put them up in his home, had loaned them money, had really been there for Charles when he, uh, suffered the worst of his alcoholism and was beginning this decline in his life.

669
01:09:28,598.76 --> 01:09:32,478.76
And the Robert Kermit never had any children.

670
01:09:32,918.76 --> 01:09:46,998.759
And so when, uh, the family asked, what can we do to possibly repay you and honor you? He said, well, I have, I have no sons to carry my name forward, forth into the next generation.

671
01:09:47,443.76 --> 01:10:02,583.76
Would you consider naming your son for me? And indeed, they Charles and Gertrude had a son, uh, that son who would have been eat his older brother, uh, died in infancy before he was even 1 year old.

672
01:10:02,918.76 --> 01:10:20,238.76
Um, they had named him Kermit, so when Edith was born, they replicated the honor and named her Edith Kermit Corot, um, and that is the origin of the name Kermit, which of course then she named one of her sons Kermit, and the name carries down to this day.

673
01:10:21,449.635 --> 01:10:25,149.634
Well, before we go, we need to get over to a sister Corinne.

674
01:10:25,289.633 --> 01:10:51,813.033
Uh, Oh, so love I, Heh yeah, so could you talk a little bit about, um, Connie, as she was known to the family, Corinne Roosevelt Robinson's, uh, really unofficial and maybe sometimes unwelcome role as a TR press secretary I'll admit to you, Larry and Kurt, because I would presume the listeners of this fine podcast are what we affectionately call at the TR library are Ted Mm hmm.

675
01:10:51,813.033 --> 01:10:52,256.333
Kareen.

676
01:10:52,256.333 --> 01:10:54,29.533
Heh heh heh heh.

677
01:10:54,98.758 --> 01:10:55,758.758
you listen to the audio.

678
01:10:56,418.758 --> 01:11:01,738.658
pronunciation that the family had was Kareen, Kareen, Kareen.

679
01:11:01,818.758 --> 01:11:06,88.758
And I, I, I recorded the audio book of The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt.

680
01:11:06,98.758 --> 01:11:13,878.758
And I said, look, technically it would be Kareen, but absolutely no one will ever understand.

681
01:11:14,188.758 --> 01:11:17,468.758
why we are calling her Connie and then saying Corrine.

682
01:11:17,738.758 --> 01:11:23,788.758
Uh, so I will admit that if you get the audio book of The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt, I am copying to it.

683
01:11:23,958.757 --> 01:11:25,999.633
We called her Connie and, Yeah.

684
01:11:26,478.758 --> 01:11:29,968.757
that's, that's her name, uh, in the book and on the audio book.

685
01:11:30,338.757 --> 01:11:40,68.758
But I think Connie would be okay with it because she was, as I described in the book, TR's unofficial press secretary, the press secretary before the role existed.

686
01:11:40,708.758 --> 01:11:46,178.758
Um, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt would essentially say that if you wanted advice, you go to BAMI.

687
01:11:46,408.758 --> 01:11:48,498.758
If you want sympathy, you go to Connie.

688
01:11:48,619.633 --> 01:11:48,979.633
Mm hmm.

689
01:11:48,979.733 --> 01:11:50,499.533
Heh heh heh heh.

690
01:11:50,888.758 --> 01:11:53,518.758
She was more, um, she was poetic.

691
01:11:53,528.757 --> 01:11:54,868.757
She was indeed a poet.

692
01:11:55,28.758 --> 01:11:59,338.758
She wrote books of poetry, had a really fascinating and interesting life.

693
01:11:59,613.758 --> 01:12:02,203.758
On her own had not a great marriage.

694
01:12:02,233.758 --> 01:12:07,823.758
Um, and, and with that, not great marriage really funneled more of her energy into her brother.

695
01:12:08,143.758 --> 01:12:13,453.758
Um, but, you know, practically what Connie would do is I love this example.

696
01:12:13,703.757 --> 01:12:21,333.758
So, in, in when is governor Connie will come in from New Jersey and actually in Bambi's home.

697
01:12:21,758.758 --> 01:12:39,648.758
Uh, sit in on meetings that the, that the governor is having with Boss Platt and when eventually the breakfast is over, you know, Boss Platt will say, everybody clear out and the governor will say, well, surely my sister can say she's so interested in all that I do.

698
01:12:39,713.858 --> 01:12:43,833.758
And so Connie would stay and they'd take advantage of the sexism of the age.

699
01:12:43,873.758 --> 01:12:46,633.758
Connie would stay in the room, hear everything that happened.

700
01:12:46,923.758 --> 01:12:59,653.758
So much so that Theodore will say to Connie, Haven't we had fun being governor of New York? Uh, you know, that's, that's how much they were discussing and thinking through, um, the issues of the day when T.

701
01:12:59,653.758 --> 01:12:59,853.758
R.

702
01:12:59,853.758 --> 01:13:00,433.758
is governor.

703
01:13:00,693.758 --> 01:13:03,573.758
Fast forward, you know, Connie understands that T.

704
01:13:03,573.758 --> 01:13:03,953.758
R.

705
01:13:04,73.758 --> 01:13:07,203.758
's advantage is his reputation in the press.

706
01:13:07,203.758 --> 01:13:07,363.658
Fast forward.

707
01:13:07,843.758 --> 01:13:10,463.758
She will slip heroics of his time in Cuba.

708
01:13:10,463.758 --> 01:13:12,763.758
She'll slip heroics or she'll slip stories.

709
01:13:13,203.758 --> 01:13:16,683.758
Of the rambunctious home life, uh, to the press.

710
01:13:17,33.758 --> 01:13:19,383.758
She will do this over Edith's objection.

711
01:13:19,383.758 --> 01:13:27,223.758
You know, Edith wants to keep her family private and will reluctantly participate in some of the events of a public family.

712
01:13:27,503.757 --> 01:13:44,423.758
But Connie will repeatedly take details of the, the tales that they will have with the, the nephews and sons and make sure that the press falls in love with, uh, This incredible family, their pets and their crazy antics in the White House.

713
01:13:44,423.758 --> 01:13:49,979.633
And that's all Connie intuitively understanding that, that the TR had a power in the Yeah.

714
01:13:51,809.633 --> 01:13:59,399.6315
and continues that role even after his death, right? With the writing of, uh, it was my brother, Theodore Roosevelt, uh, kept that, that going.

715
01:14:00,188.7565 --> 01:14:01,619.6315
Now, I mean, that's it, Yeah.

716
01:14:01,848.7565 --> 01:14:13,658.7555
I mean, they will say, uh, one of, one of Connie's grandchildren will say, where's your platform, grandmother? Because they're so used to seeing her get on a platform and give a speech.

717
01:14:13,668.7555 --> 01:14:18,323.6565
She's the first woman to address a major party convention, the 1920 convention.

718
01:14:18,493.7565 --> 01:14:24,604.6315
The New York Times literally says the timber of her voice, the mannerisms hmm.

719
01:14:24,823.7565 --> 01:14:26,973.7565
speech are so evocative.

720
01:14:27,203.7565 --> 01:14:36,773.7565
Surely the convention goers must have thought of Theodore Roosevelt, who could have been the nominee, would have been the nominee at that 1920 Republican convention.

721
01:14:37,3.7565 --> 01:14:44,33.7565
Yet it's Connie who's carrying on the We'll work with BAMI to reestablish the boyhood home.

722
01:14:44,64.6315 --> 01:14:44,514.6315
Yes.

723
01:14:44,553.7565 --> 01:14:49,883.7555
work to establish the American Museum of Natural History as the New York State Memorial to TR.

724
01:14:50,3.7565 --> 01:14:52,283.7565
We'll write my brother Theodore Roosevelt.

725
01:14:52,313.7565 --> 01:14:56,13.7565
We'll give speeches across the nation in his name.

726
01:14:56,63.7565 --> 01:15:02,603.7565
Uh, you know, Connie, uh, understood that one of the most important parts of the presidency is the post presidency.

727
01:15:02,933.7565 --> 01:15:09,903.7565
Uh, to put it in the pantheon of great presidents, which at the time immediately following his presidency, was by no means a short thing.

728
01:15:10,104.6325 --> 01:15:10,404.6325
Yeah.

729
01:15:10,808.7575 --> 01:15:18,128.7575
she, she cemented his legacy, uh, right alongside Washington and Lincoln and eventually, uh, Jefferson.

730
01:15:18,128.7575 --> 01:15:25,788.7565
I mean, that's one of the reasons he's there on Mount Rushmore is the efforts of his sisters to ensure that, uh, Theodore Roosevelt was remembered.

731
01:15:25,923.8575 --> 01:15:34,839.6325
Oh, but he said, uh, was that history will be kind to me because I intend to write it.

732
01:15:37,253.7575 --> 01:15:38,203.7575
I like that one.

733
01:15:38,293.7575 --> 01:15:39,183.7575
I like that, Kurt.

734
01:15:39,203.7575 --> 01:15:40,543.7575
We're definitely going to use that.

735
01:15:41,164.6325 --> 01:15:46,714.6325
And I know when Corinne wrote my brother Theodore Roosevelt, Edith and Ted Jr.

736
01:15:47,494.6325 --> 01:15:53,474.6325
were livid and then eventually came around, but yeah, there was a bit of a family rift.

737
01:15:53,514.6325 --> 01:15:54,943.7575
I mean, Ted Jr.

738
01:15:54,963.7575 --> 01:16:05,833.7575
says, I think that she really believes that she is he now, referring to I mean, and what a, what a conflict, right? Yeah, Roosevelt Jr.

739
01:16:05,873.7575 --> 01:16:08,844.6315
You're the namesake of your famous yes.

740
01:16:09,733.757 --> 01:16:11,183.7575
to live up to that example.

741
01:16:11,183.7575 --> 01:16:17,313.7575
And then you've got, you know, your aunt basically supplanting you and she's got it.

742
01:16:17,414.6325 --> 01:16:17,764.6325
Yeah.

743
01:16:18,123.7565 --> 01:16:20,553.7565
charismatic and she's lively.

744
01:16:20,803.7565 --> 01:16:21,523.7565
Just a quick note.

745
01:16:21,863.7575 --> 01:16:37,563.7575
I know we're, I know we're coming toward the end, but I also want to note that You know, you have only one line of living examples from and Alice, right? You have Alice Roosevelt Longworth, and now her wonderful descendants.

746
01:16:38,273.7575 --> 01:16:42,213.7565
Alice Roosevelt Longworth is just an incredible character in history.

747
01:16:42,508.7575 --> 01:16:43,204.6325
And Yeah.

748
01:16:43,328.7575 --> 01:16:59,918.7575
how could you look at Alice and not think, have had an incredible, dynamic mother? I mean, because you have five examples from Theodore and Edith, and, you know, I would imagine that Ted Jr.

749
01:16:59,928.7565 --> 01:17:05,994.6325
had a hard time competing with Connie, because she was as lively and Yeah.

750
01:17:06,188.7575 --> 01:17:07,148.7575
as her brother.

751
01:17:07,568.7575 --> 01:17:10,378.6575
And that, that carried through in a way with Ted Jr.

752
01:17:10,778.7575 --> 01:17:19,63.7575
TR and Alice because Alice was a, uh, you know, a bit more outgoing and spontaneous and athletic and All these differences from, from Edith.

753
01:17:19,463.7575 --> 01:17:24,933.7575
So, you know, another fascinating way to look at the differences, uh, between the loves of Theodore Roosevelt.

754
01:17:25,74.6325 --> 01:17:25,414.6325
Yeah.

755
01:17:26,664.6325 --> 01:17:35,894.6325
Well, you mentioned that When Bammy was an adult, wrote that Theodore is the only person who had the power of making me almost worship him.

756
01:17:36,694.6325 --> 01:17:38,324.6325
From early in his life, T.

757
01:17:38,324.6325 --> 01:17:38,454.6325
R.

758
01:17:38,454.6325 --> 01:17:43,274.6325
seems to have been the main or central focus of the attention in the Roosevelt family.

759
01:17:43,904.6325 --> 01:18:08,733.7575
How unique is that in that time period for a man to have had such adoring support network? Well, you know, I, I think that it wasn't unique that women of that era had to find a a mechanism in which to channel the energy and the intelligence that they had that society.

760
01:18:09,808.7575 --> 01:18:21,824.6325
them, right? I mean, I, I think that, um, know, as we said, Alice will later, Alice, the daughter will say that had Bambi Bambi been a Mm hmm.

761
01:18:21,948.7575 --> 01:18:25,338.7575
not would have been president and Eleanor Roosevelt agreed.

762
01:18:25,758.7565 --> 01:18:29,48.7575
That doesn't mean that Bambi wanted to be president necessarily.

763
01:18:29,98.7575 --> 01:18:30,444.6325
Right? I mean, Yeah.

764
01:18:30,808.7575 --> 01:18:33,588.7575
now, but if you, if she lived 100 years later.

765
01:18:34,488.7575 --> 01:18:44,848.7565
could have been, and it would have been just as, just as, as expected, um, and not as unusual to say, well, she should be the, she's the older sister.

766
01:18:44,848.7575 --> 01:18:45,968.7565
She's charismatic.

767
01:18:46,278.7565 --> 01:18:46,728.7575
She's intelligent.

768
01:18:46,738.7575 --> 01:18:47,288.7575
She's brilliant.

769
01:18:47,298.7575 --> 01:18:48,438.7575
She should run for office.

770
01:18:49,458.7575 --> 01:18:52,18.7575
you know, it's, it's a lot of the expectations of the age.

771
01:18:52,28.7565 --> 01:18:52,864.6325
And I Mm hmm.

772
01:18:52,898.7575 --> 01:19:11,954.6325
certainly feel that with Alice Roosevelt Longworth, who You know, grows up in this crucible and is, you know, such the of public attention and is constrained in many ways by, um, the limitations of her gender in her Yeah.

773
01:19:11,968.7575 --> 01:19:13,798.7575
that's not to say that, you know, Susan B.

774
01:19:13,798.7575 --> 01:19:14,708.7565
Anthony and Ida B.

775
01:19:15,94.6325 --> 01:19:15,454.6325
Yeah.

776
01:19:15,498.7565 --> 01:19:21,238.7575
there are extraordinary examples of women, you know, Edith Wharton doing, uh, the work that she does.

777
01:19:21,268.7575 --> 01:19:26,68.7565
There's so many, there's many, many examples of women who break out of the constraints of their time.

778
01:19:26,68.7575 --> 01:19:26,928.7575
But I do think.

779
01:19:27,398.7575 --> 01:19:30,684.6325
That it was more usual than not, Mm hmm.

780
01:19:30,978.7575 --> 01:19:40,594.6315
women would have to find, uh, an outpost for their prodigious intelligence and energy and, uh, Theodore Roosevelt is, is pretty lucky Yeah.

781
01:19:40,888.7575 --> 01:19:48,814.6325
this cadre of women in his life, um, because I really don't think we would have had President Roosevelt, uh, Uh, Mm mm.

782
01:19:48,814.7325 --> 01:19:48,909.5325
Mm hmm.

783
01:19:48,983.7575 --> 01:19:53,879.6325
Mii and Bamy and Connie and Alice, uh, and Edith, Yeah.

784
01:19:53,993.7575 --> 01:19:55,348.7575
really, I don't think we would.

785
01:19:57,909.6315 --> 01:20:01,579.6315
Well, Edward, let me pose you a, a what if question here.

786
01:20:01,669.6325 --> 01:20:08,309.53
Uh, many historians will balk at the, uh, at the what if question.

787
01:20:08,359.53 --> 01:20:17,149.53
But, I, so as you know, Larry and I, do sometimes take on the character of Roosevelt, uh, in classrooms and various audiences.

788
01:20:17,289.53 --> 01:20:21,999.5295
I was recently in a 7th grade classroom here, locally in Colorado Springs, Mr.

789
01:20:21,999.5295 --> 01:20:40,249.3613333
Kasson's 7th grade class, and, uh, uh, he prepared his students well, and, I had the question posed to me, would, Have become president if Alice present? Woof.

790
01:20:40,335.3363333 --> 01:20:40,995.3363333
Mm hmm.

791
01:20:42,515.3363333 --> 01:21:04,299.4583333
Would it have? answer, like how does that alter TR's trajectory and I don't know I mean does that permanently alter his trajectory if Alice never died as a as a young mother? Well, will say this, you know, I admire the work of Edmund Morris.

792
01:21:04,389.4593333 --> 01:21:06,859.4593333
I think, you know, and God rest his soul.

793
01:21:06,889.4593333 --> 01:21:13,609.4593333
He did more for the Theodore Roosevelt canon, reviving his reputation and doing that amazing trilogy.

794
01:21:14,484.4593333 --> 01:21:27,245.3343333
I take issue and I do take issue in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt with his description of Alice and it kind of cruelly suggesting that the best service she ever provided him was, was passing away, Yeah.

795
01:21:27,364.4593333 --> 01:21:29,494.4593333
was, was leaving his life.

796
01:21:29,774.4583333 --> 01:21:33,274.4593333
I wholeheartedly and vehemently disagree.

797
01:21:33,554.4583333 --> 01:21:41,584.4593333
I think that Theodore Roosevelt in the six years he knew Alice, uh, began to formulate his progressive reform minded.

798
01:21:41,934.4593333 --> 01:21:42,954.4593333
Uh, philosophy.

799
01:21:42,994.4593333 --> 01:21:47,254.4593333
I think that he studied the law and then decided, wait a second.

800
01:21:47,334.4593333 --> 01:21:49,485.3343333
If you want to change the law, you have Mm hmm.

801
01:21:49,664.4588333 --> 01:21:50,44.4593333
for office.

802
01:21:50,424.4593333 --> 01:21:52,764.4593333
You don't study the law, you change the law.

803
01:21:52,965.3343333 --> 01:21:53,235.3343333
Yeah.

804
01:21:53,674.4593333 --> 01:22:00,444.4583333
you know, the only thing Theodore Roosevelt ever quit was the law because he found it ineffective compared to what he could do if he could make the laws.

805
01:22:00,564.4583333 --> 01:22:01,495.3343333
Um, Yeah.

806
01:22:01,944.4593333 --> 01:22:07,854.4583333
you know, that he, he did his first major book, the naval war of 1812 while he was married to Alice.

807
01:22:08,544.4593333 --> 01:22:18,775.3343333
In his own words, rose like a rocket and was elected three times to the New York State Assembly, still the youngest person ever elected to the New York State Assembly and nearly became speaker of Yeah.

808
01:22:19,544.4593333 --> 01:22:20,634.4583333
he was with Alice.

809
01:22:20,754.4593333 --> 01:22:25,54.4593333
Um, you know, I think his life obviously would have taken a different path.

810
01:22:25,54.4593333 --> 01:22:25,975.3343333
I mean, that, Mm hmm.

811
01:22:26,634.4593333 --> 01:22:30,34.4593333
The worst thing that ever, the worst thing that ever happened to you didn't happen.

812
01:22:30,84.4593333 --> 01:22:31,354.4593333
Your life takes a different path.

813
01:22:31,935.3343333 --> 01:22:32,405.3343333
Yeah.

814
01:22:32,454.4593333 --> 01:22:38,204.4593333
I, I think, you know, it's the hard things that happen to us in life that teach us the most.

815
01:22:38,264.4593333 --> 01:22:44,694.4593333
And by no means would ever anyone ever wish that terrible tragedy on someone.

816
01:22:44,714.4593333 --> 01:22:53,935.3333333
I mean, you know, if Theodore Roosevelt he would later say, if you take all the memories of my life away, say, but one, I want the memory of my time in the Badlands as a Yep.

817
01:22:54,34.4583333 --> 01:22:54,484.4583333
and a cowboy.

818
01:22:54,584.4583333 --> 01:22:55,194.4583333
Right.

819
01:22:56,144.4583333 --> 01:23:04,619.4583333
I, I think, you know, you could almost say, if he, He undoubtedly would have wanted his life to, his wife to live.

820
01:23:04,939.4583333 --> 01:23:11,539.4573333
He undoubtedly would have wanted to live, you know, would he have traded everything that came after it to have Alice in his life? Yes.

821
01:23:11,629.4573333 --> 01:23:13,529.4583333
I mean, I think he loved her.

822
01:23:13,979.4573333 --> 01:23:18,125.3333333
He says nothing, whatever else, but you, Yeah.

823
01:23:18,809.4573333 --> 01:23:27,289.4583333
he loves her so passionately, so deeply, and says, I talk over everything with Alice from politics to poetry.

824
01:23:27,379.4583333 --> 01:23:30,709.4583333
So do I think he, he would have followed a different trajectory.

825
01:23:31,34.4583333 --> 01:23:36,714.4583333
Would it have ended in the same place? I would argue probably yes.

826
01:23:36,784.4583333 --> 01:23:43,954.4583333
I mean, I think, you know, he was a man of destiny and he had the support system of these incredible people around him.

827
01:23:43,975.3323333 --> 01:23:44,305.3323333
Mm hmm.

828
01:23:44,404.4583333 --> 01:23:48,265.3323333
And they were determined to make his life, uh, Yeah.

829
01:23:48,505.3333333 --> 01:23:51,84.4583333
Mm theirs, and that wouldn't have changed.

830
01:23:51,224.4583333 --> 01:23:57,865.3333333
Um, now, you know, Edith would not have entered the picture in the way that she did, and that undoubtedly would have changed things too, but, hmm.

831
01:23:58,24.4573333 --> 01:24:20,349.4583333
but, um, you know, I, I think I'll, I'll end where I began, which is, you know, my vision of Theodore Roosevelt as a child was, The autochthonous will, this, um, sui generis and, and, and just almost, um, supernatural ability to find your way through any, uh, crisis.

832
01:24:20,529.4583333 --> 01:24:21,265.3323333
And, Yeah.

833
01:24:21,479.5573333 --> 01:24:28,399.4583333
to do that as a self made man, right? That's not necessarily true.

834
01:24:29,519.4583333 --> 01:24:30,499.4583333
It's a great story.

835
01:24:30,759.4583333 --> 01:24:31,999.4583333
And I love a great story.

836
01:24:33,239.4583333 --> 01:24:34,779.4583333
It's a better story.

837
01:24:35,179.4573333 --> 01:24:37,249.4583333
If you say that Theodore Roosevelt.

838
01:24:37,689.4583333 --> 01:24:39,979.4583333
Like all of us, needed help.

839
01:24:40,149.4583333 --> 01:24:41,379.4583333
He needed his mother.

840
01:24:41,389.4583333 --> 01:24:43,609.4583333
He needed his sisters.

841
01:24:43,779.4583333 --> 01:24:47,75.3323333
He needed both Alice and Edith Yes.

842
01:24:47,249.4583333 --> 01:24:49,629.4583333
they came into his life at the time they did.

843
01:24:49,934.4583333 --> 01:25:02,474.4583333
Um, and thank God they did because it made our country a better place and it made an example of a person that we can continue to look to today to inspire generations tomorrow.

844
01:25:02,504.4583333 --> 01:25:06,754.4573333
And so that's, that's what I love about the loves of Theodore Roosevelt.

845
01:25:07,274.4573333 --> 01:25:07,544.4573333
Yeah.

846
01:25:07,544.4573333 --> 01:25:08,124.4563333
Thank you.

847
01:25:08,124.4573333 --> 01:25:09,754.4563333
This has been wonderful.

848
01:25:09,763.5823333 --> 01:25:10,363.5823333
Wonderful.

849
01:25:10,544.4573333 --> 01:25:12,404.4573333
enjoyed having this discussion with you about your book.

850
01:25:13,773.5823333 --> 01:25:18,513.5823333
Well, Larry, Kurt, I, I, I love seeing you out in Medora in the Badlands.

851
01:25:18,663.5823333 --> 01:25:20,553.5823333
I hope we get to do that again this summer.

852
01:25:20,553.5823333 --> 01:25:27,143.5823333
And, you know, uh, I'll watch in the performance if there's a little bit of the loves of tr coming through from here on out.

853
01:25:27,724.4573333 --> 01:25:33,54.4573333
Well Edward O'Keefe, the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, the women who created a president.

854
01:25:33,264.4573333 --> 01:25:46,135.4323333
Uh, terrific new take on Roosevelt as the center of of Amazing support network of women who created this man.

855
01:25:46,565.4323333 --> 01:25:49,235.4323333
Don't just take Larry and I's word for it.

856
01:25:50,465.4313333 --> 01:25:54,465.4323333
Again, Kathleen Dalton was a significant contributor to this book.

857
01:25:54,785.4323333 --> 01:26:02,305.4323333
You have on the back page here praise from historians like John Meacham, Candace Millard, Douglas Brinkley.

858
01:26:02,845.4323333 --> 01:26:04,735.4323333
Wonderful new book released.

859
01:26:05,95.4323333 --> 01:26:12,129.5573333
When is this released again, Edward? May 7th, wherever books are sold, the audio book on the same date.

860
01:26:12,129.5573333 --> 01:26:17,605.4323333
And if you'd like to know more about where I'm gonna be appearing and all the book signings and events, Good.

861
01:26:17,924.5573333 --> 01:26:20,49.5573333
O'Keefe dot com, uh, please.

862
01:26:20,904.5573333 --> 01:26:27,414.5573333
Or to the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, wherever you like to buy books, and I'd love to see you out there on the road.

863
01:26:27,464.5573333 --> 01:26:27,934.5573333
Edward F.

864
01:26:27,934.5573333 --> 01:26:28,894.5573333
O'Keefe dot com.

865
01:26:28,944.5573333 --> 01:26:30,884.5563333
Come, come see me and I'd love to say hello.

866
01:26:30,935.4323333 --> 01:26:36,294.5573333
Well, thank you for what you do, and yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing you this summer I'm happy.

867
01:26:36,294.5573333 --> 01:26:38,174.5573333
We're able to have this conversation today.

868
01:26:38,174.5573333 --> 01:26:39,34.5568333
I'm Larry Kurt.

869
01:26:39,34.5568333 --> 01:26:40,924.5573333
It's really it's truly been a pleasure.

870
01:26:40,924.5573333 --> 01:26:42,314.5573333
I love talking with folks who.

871
01:26:42,664.5573333 --> 01:26:46,124.5573333
Love TR as much as me and I really appreciate all you do.